1 00:00:00,145 --> 00:00:03,765 And wander towards the front, find seats, 2 00:00:03,875 --> 00:00:05,965 turn off phones, et cetera. 3 00:00:06,585 --> 00:00:09,405 My name is David Earl. I'm the interim dean of the College 4 00:00:09,405 --> 00:00:13,005 of Arts, social Science, the humanities, uh, welcome 5 00:00:13,805 --> 00:00:16,925 everyone to our final downtown lecture series of the year. 6 00:00:18,225 --> 00:00:20,605 The Town Hall lectures are meant to spotlight the kind 7 00:00:20,605 --> 00:00:22,445 of cultural experiences 8 00:00:22,745 --> 00:00:24,925 and intellectual exercises that the University 9 00:00:24,925 --> 00:00:26,725 of West Florida offers. 10 00:00:28,105 --> 00:00:31,165 The topics this year have ranged from a talk on flapper 11 00:00:31,165 --> 00:00:34,525 fiction of the 1920s to a discussion about the history 12 00:00:34,865 --> 00:00:37,525 of white resistance to federal power in the South, 13 00:00:38,435 --> 00:00:40,085 from a talk about the militarization 14 00:00:40,085 --> 00:00:42,005 of the police to tonight's lecture. 15 00:00:43,105 --> 00:00:45,325 As you can see, we try and show the breadth 16 00:00:45,385 --> 00:00:48,725 and richness of disciplines housed in the College of Arts, 17 00:00:48,725 --> 00:00:52,125 social Science, and Humanities, just as we try 18 00:00:52,125 --> 00:00:54,365 and choose topics and speakers from across the political 19 00:00:54,365 --> 00:00:55,805 and cultural spectrums. 20 00:00:57,035 --> 00:01:00,245 Tonight's talk is the yearly Ask You lecture hosted 21 00:01:00,245 --> 00:01:04,125 by the Ruben Od Ask You, department of Government in honor 22 00:01:04,125 --> 00:01:06,525 of the 37th Governor of Florida. 23 00:01:08,165 --> 00:01:10,365 Governor, ask You also known has Reuben. 24 00:01:10,365 --> 00:01:14,085 The Good is widely considered one of Florida's best 25 00:01:14,725 --> 00:01:16,925 governors, a progressive Democrat, 26 00:01:17,425 --> 00:01:19,245 and he was not uncontroversial. 27 00:01:19,985 --> 00:01:21,445 He supported desegregation 28 00:01:21,865 --> 00:01:24,245 and was key in organizing voter representation 29 00:01:24,825 --> 00:01:27,525 by population rather than geography. 30 00:01:27,945 --> 00:01:31,605 Yet he was against gay rights and pro capital punishment. 31 00:01:32,985 --> 00:01:35,325 In short, he was a complex man 32 00:01:35,515 --> 00:01:37,725 with complex political beliefs. 33 00:01:38,475 --> 00:01:40,485 It's exactly this level of complexity 34 00:01:40,785 --> 00:01:43,965 and at times contradiction and controversy that we try 35 00:01:43,965 --> 00:01:45,605 and teach our students to understand 36 00:01:46,105 --> 00:01:48,365 and think through from multiple viewpoints. 37 00:01:48,985 --> 00:01:51,645 In short, we teach civil discourse. 38 00:01:52,425 --> 00:01:54,885 We hope that the talk tonight will result in a vibrant 39 00:01:55,285 --> 00:01:59,205 question and answer period, like a good class discussion. 40 00:01:59,745 --> 00:02:01,085 We hope that there'll be real 41 00:02:01,465 --> 00:02:04,885 and really civil discourse, uh, 42 00:02:05,165 --> 00:02:07,965 IE robust dialogue from multiple viewpoints. 43 00:02:08,385 --> 00:02:10,765 If you don't agree with the speaker asked questions, 44 00:02:11,445 --> 00:02:14,565 I I think that as an educator, he would appreciate that. 45 00:02:15,345 --> 00:02:18,125 And before I bring Dr. Ramsey to introduce our speaker, 46 00:02:18,285 --> 00:02:21,045 I would be lax not to point out that if you value this kind 47 00:02:21,045 --> 00:02:25,205 of lecture or the spirit of, uh, civil discourse, consider 48 00:02:25,725 --> 00:02:27,845 donating to the lecture series. 49 00:02:28,195 --> 00:02:30,925 There's a QR code on the back of the program. 50 00:02:32,415 --> 00:02:34,565 These events are free and they're open to the public. 51 00:02:35,225 --> 00:02:36,725 So let's keep them that way. 52 00:02:37,705 --> 00:02:41,245 And with that, I'd like to introduce David Ramsey, the Chair 53 00:02:41,245 --> 00:02:42,845 of government to introduce our speaker. 54 00:02:53,135 --> 00:02:55,885 Thank you, Dean Earl. Uh, in just a moment, 55 00:02:56,005 --> 00:02:57,045 I will introduce the speaker. 56 00:02:57,145 --> 00:03:00,405 But first, uh, some things about the event. 57 00:03:00,585 --> 00:03:02,885 Uh, well, let's see. 58 00:03:03,025 --> 00:03:07,165 Uh, let's talk a bit about, uh, professor Deneen. 59 00:03:07,305 --> 00:03:10,045 Uh, he is the Distinguished University professor in the 60 00:03:10,045 --> 00:03:13,685 department of, um, government at Notre Dame, 61 00:03:13,745 --> 00:03:15,045 and author of numerous books 62 00:03:15,185 --> 00:03:17,765 and articles, uh, came 63 00:03:17,805 --> 00:03:19,765 to our attention down here in Pensacola 64 00:03:19,765 --> 00:03:22,245 because of his two most recent books, uh, 65 00:03:22,345 --> 00:03:26,245 why Liberalism Failed from 2018, in which he makes the case 66 00:03:26,245 --> 00:03:28,165 that the renan political philosophy 67 00:03:28,585 --> 00:03:31,765 of the American regime liberalism is no longer accepted 68 00:03:31,785 --> 00:03:33,165 as a self evident truth. 69 00:03:34,025 --> 00:03:35,205 And in regime change. 70 00:03:35,465 --> 00:03:38,725 Uh, 2023, uh, he develops a vision of 71 00:03:38,725 --> 00:03:41,965 what might take the place of our decadent liberalism, 72 00:03:42,725 --> 00:03:45,605 a common good conservatism characterized by moderation, 73 00:03:45,915 --> 00:03:49,725 tradition, and the return to something like the mixed regime 74 00:03:49,985 --> 00:03:51,165 by blending what is highest 75 00:03:51,585 --> 00:03:55,565 and best with what's popular, what's for the people. 76 00:03:56,655 --> 00:03:58,085 These books are provocative. 77 00:03:58,595 --> 00:04:00,485 They challenge settled assumptions. 78 00:04:00,485 --> 00:04:03,005 They challenged my settled assumptions when I read them. 79 00:04:03,145 --> 00:04:05,885 And it was part of, you know, I was provoked. 80 00:04:05,885 --> 00:04:07,445 And so I thought, we gotta bring 'em here to town. 81 00:04:07,545 --> 00:04:10,245 And here, uh, let, let people here in town, uh, hear 82 00:04:10,245 --> 00:04:12,205 what he has to say and ask your questions. 83 00:04:14,045 --> 00:04:16,735 They, the, the books question the legitimacy of our elites, 84 00:04:16,795 --> 00:04:18,975 the people who claim to rule in our name, 85 00:04:20,075 --> 00:04:22,095 in the sense they're part of a long tradition. 86 00:04:22,445 --> 00:04:25,895 That dates back to Socrates, the philosopher, 87 00:04:25,895 --> 00:04:28,735 who once described himself as a sort of gadfly, sent 88 00:04:28,735 --> 00:04:31,935 by the God to sting the city of Athens into wakefulness. 89 00:04:33,265 --> 00:04:34,425 Socrates and Plato 90 00:04:34,425 --> 00:04:38,065 and Aristotle taken together inaugurated the tradition 91 00:04:38,065 --> 00:04:41,225 of civil discourse wherein the philosophers sought 92 00:04:41,225 --> 00:04:44,425 to set their fellow citizens thinking, urging them 93 00:04:44,445 --> 00:04:47,065 to consider big fundamental questions. 94 00:04:47,885 --> 00:04:51,145 Who should rule? What is the good life? 95 00:04:52,215 --> 00:04:53,345 What is a human being? 96 00:04:54,645 --> 00:04:57,945 How do humans differ from the other animals and the gods? 97 00:04:58,815 --> 00:05:00,745 What are the forms of human excellence? 98 00:05:01,525 --> 00:05:05,065 And can such excellence, such virtue be taught? 99 00:05:06,435 --> 00:05:08,585 These sorts of questions are at the heart of 100 00:05:08,585 --> 00:05:11,225 what we do in higher education still today, 101 00:05:12,285 --> 00:05:15,985 and especially here in this college when taken seriously, 102 00:05:15,985 --> 00:05:19,585 they cannot help but disrupt any settled order. 103 00:05:20,535 --> 00:05:22,705 Perhaps it's for, uh, perhaps it's for this reason 104 00:05:22,705 --> 00:05:25,625 that the citizens of Athens decided to pay Socrates 105 00:05:25,625 --> 00:05:29,425 for his troubles by inviting him to drink hemlock 106 00:05:30,445 --> 00:05:33,105 and Socrates accepted the verdict of his fellow citizens. 107 00:05:33,775 --> 00:05:38,365 This, too is a part of the tradition inaugurated 108 00:05:38,365 --> 00:05:39,565 by Socrates, a reminder 109 00:05:39,955 --> 00:05:42,805 that challenging the settled assumptions of citizens 110 00:05:43,345 --> 00:05:44,565 is not without risk. 111 00:05:46,665 --> 00:05:49,725 So we've asked Professor Deneen here tonight to talk 112 00:05:49,725 --> 00:05:51,405 with us more about 113 00:05:51,405 --> 00:05:53,205 where he thinks the American regime is headed, 114 00:05:54,305 --> 00:05:56,285 if indeed liberalism has failed. 115 00:05:57,305 --> 00:05:59,765 That's a tall order, no easy thing to do. 116 00:05:59,945 --> 00:06:03,485 In a mere 45 minutes, we can judge together 117 00:06:03,545 --> 00:06:04,685 how he acquits himself. 118 00:06:05,225 --> 00:06:07,845 But each of you also have some work to do this evening. 119 00:06:08,915 --> 00:06:10,845 It's our practice here in the Department of Government 120 00:06:10,845 --> 00:06:13,085 that when we invite a speaker in, we make sure 121 00:06:13,085 --> 00:06:14,765 that there is time at the end of the speak as, 122 00:06:14,785 --> 00:06:17,765 as Dean has just said, for the audience to ask questions. 123 00:06:18,265 --> 00:06:20,405 So, I would like to ask you, as you are listening 124 00:06:20,405 --> 00:06:23,405 to Professor Dunne's remark remarks, think 125 00:06:23,835 --> 00:06:24,885 what is your question? 126 00:06:25,315 --> 00:06:27,325 What, what, what question is provoked in you 127 00:06:27,865 --> 00:06:29,205 by the things that are being said? 128 00:06:29,705 --> 00:06:33,085 And I'd like to ask you to, uh, raise your hand and, 129 00:06:33,085 --> 00:06:34,845 and ask your questions so 130 00:06:34,845 --> 00:06:36,845 that we can inaugurate again this tradition 131 00:06:36,845 --> 00:06:39,045 of civic discourse, civil discourse, 132 00:06:39,585 --> 00:06:40,685 uh, here in our community. 133 00:06:41,675 --> 00:06:43,805 Okay? So we each have our own work to do. 134 00:06:43,985 --> 00:06:46,605 Having finished mine now falls to me to ask 135 00:06:46,605 --> 00:06:49,205 that you join me in welcoming to the podium, 136 00:06:49,745 --> 00:06:50,845 Dr. Patrick Denine. 137 00:07:03,015 --> 00:07:06,565 Thank you so much. Uh, David, uh, I've just asked him 138 00:07:06,565 --> 00:07:11,325 to grab me a cup of hemlock For our water. 139 00:07:11,375 --> 00:07:13,045 We'll see what's in it, you'll know by the end 140 00:07:13,045 --> 00:07:14,885 of the evening whether it's spiked. 141 00:07:15,845 --> 00:07:17,685 I wanna thank Dean Earl for, uh, 142 00:07:17,745 --> 00:07:18,965 for being present here tonight. 143 00:07:19,005 --> 00:07:21,085 I don't think my dean would show up if I gave a 144 00:07:21,085 --> 00:07:22,165 speech at Notre Dame. 145 00:07:22,185 --> 00:07:24,685 So it's, uh, it's kind, it's kind for Dean Earl to come. 146 00:07:25,025 --> 00:07:26,565 Uh, David, thanks for the invitation. 147 00:07:26,725 --> 00:07:28,725 I really appreciate it and the spirit, uh, 148 00:07:28,725 --> 00:07:31,485 which you extended it to, you know, bring some ideas 149 00:07:31,595 --> 00:07:34,965 that could be controversial and might ruffle some feathers, 150 00:07:35,025 --> 00:07:37,285 but if that's what academic life 151 00:07:37,285 --> 00:07:39,565 and the Socratic life is about, then so be it. 152 00:07:39,905 --> 00:07:42,045 The Department of Government, thanks for hosting me today 153 00:07:42,145 --> 00:07:43,125 and, and for allowing me 154 00:07:43,125 --> 00:07:44,165 to spend some time with your students. 155 00:07:44,245 --> 00:07:47,245 I really enjoyed spending time, uh, with, uh, 156 00:07:47,395 --> 00:07:49,045 with students in a class today. 157 00:07:50,025 --> 00:07:52,885 Um, so it is, it is the case that, um, 158 00:07:52,915 --> 00:07:54,765 perhaps like Socrates, uh, 159 00:07:55,125 --> 00:07:59,005 I have spent the last roughly five years, uh, engaged in a 160 00:07:59,575 --> 00:08:03,325 discussion of a topic that ends up making me unpopular, uh, 161 00:08:03,325 --> 00:08:04,805 just about everywhere I speak. 162 00:08:05,145 --> 00:08:06,765 Uh, but an interesting way, 163 00:08:06,985 --> 00:08:09,605 it also makes me slightly popular almost everywhere 164 00:08:09,875 --> 00:08:13,365 that I speak, because I am become known. 165 00:08:13,465 --> 00:08:16,525 And my reputation in many ways is as a critic of liberalism. 166 00:08:16,545 --> 00:08:18,925 And most people when they hear that, think, well, 167 00:08:18,925 --> 00:08:21,205 you don't like, you don't like Democrats, then 168 00:08:21,205 --> 00:08:22,285 that's what the liberals are. 169 00:08:22,285 --> 00:08:25,125 But as it turns out, I'm a kind of equal opportunity critic 170 00:08:25,695 --> 00:08:28,725 since I also consider contemporary conservatism 171 00:08:28,745 --> 00:08:31,565 to be simply a kind of a variant of liberalism. 172 00:08:31,585 --> 00:08:34,525 In other words, I'm kind of across the board critic. 173 00:08:34,535 --> 00:08:37,685 Thank you so much. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's hawk 174 00:08:38,585 --> 00:08:40,205 across the board, uh, critic. 175 00:08:40,385 --> 00:08:42,365 So what do I, what do I mean? Uh, let me start 176 00:08:42,365 --> 00:08:44,925 by just laying out a little bit of a definition before, 177 00:08:45,345 --> 00:08:47,885 before I, uh, uh, discuss the topic. 178 00:08:47,955 --> 00:08:49,285 What do, what do I mean here? 179 00:08:49,305 --> 00:08:50,405 By, by liberalism 180 00:08:50,665 --> 00:08:53,205 and by liberalism, I don't mean the way in which we 181 00:08:53,205 --> 00:08:56,165 typically think this of, of this term as 182 00:08:57,475 --> 00:08:59,845 meaning the kind of left side of the political spectrum. 183 00:09:00,065 --> 00:09:02,725 You know, when, when Rush Limbaugh would say, liberals 184 00:09:02,755 --> 00:09:05,085 with his withering disdain, we knew, we knew 185 00:09:05,085 --> 00:09:08,165 who he was talking about, the liberals, uh, it's not, 186 00:09:08,165 --> 00:09:10,925 it's not, uh, Democrats, it's not progressives, uh, 187 00:09:10,925 --> 00:09:14,965 that are, uh, the sole liberals in our political order. 188 00:09:15,075 --> 00:09:17,325 It's really across the board, the political right 189 00:09:17,325 --> 00:09:20,485 and the political left liberalism is, 190 00:09:20,645 --> 00:09:23,725 I really speak about it then as a political philosophy, uh, 191 00:09:23,755 --> 00:09:27,525 that undergirds broadly the American system from the time 192 00:09:27,525 --> 00:09:30,565 of its founding, and in which you have a kind of a right 193 00:09:30,785 --> 00:09:31,805 and a left variant. 194 00:09:32,265 --> 00:09:34,525 And the right and the left variant, uh, have 195 00:09:35,405 --> 00:09:36,965 disagreement in many ways over, 196 00:09:37,625 --> 00:09:40,245 or have historically had a disagreement over the way in 197 00:09:40,245 --> 00:09:42,085 which a liberal end would be achieved. 198 00:09:42,665 --> 00:09:44,325 And the liberal end that was, uh, 199 00:09:44,325 --> 00:09:46,925 that was sought was a condition of a, kind 200 00:09:46,925 --> 00:09:50,725 of the greatest extent of equal liberty imaginable. 201 00:09:51,015 --> 00:09:52,325 Equal liberty was the aim. 202 00:09:52,325 --> 00:09:55,405 And li equal liberty, we could say, is the condition 203 00:09:55,745 --> 00:09:59,045 of being truly and genuinely free, truly 204 00:09:59,145 --> 00:10:02,205 and genuinely free in an equal way in which we all enjoy 205 00:10:02,205 --> 00:10:03,405 this condition of equal liberty. 206 00:10:04,145 --> 00:10:05,805 Now, equal liberty in the liberal tradition 207 00:10:05,805 --> 00:10:06,845 is understood as following. 208 00:10:06,845 --> 00:10:10,205 It begins as a philosophy that argues 209 00:10:10,205 --> 00:10:13,205 that we can only be equally free when we live under a 210 00:10:13,205 --> 00:10:16,965 political system in which we have all agreed 211 00:10:16,985 --> 00:10:19,405 and consented to the nature of that political system. 212 00:10:19,505 --> 00:10:22,125 And it kind of have an ongoing form of consent, especially 213 00:10:22,125 --> 00:10:24,605 through elections, uh, and that the purpose 214 00:10:24,785 --> 00:10:27,125 and end of the political system is the 215 00:10:27,125 --> 00:10:28,565 securing of individual rights. 216 00:10:28,585 --> 00:10:29,845 And this is what's stated in our 217 00:10:29,845 --> 00:10:31,285 Declaration of Independence, right? 218 00:10:31,285 --> 00:10:34,645 That governments are instituted among men in order to, 219 00:10:34,745 --> 00:10:36,605 to secure these rights, life, liberty, 220 00:10:36,985 --> 00:10:39,445 and the pursuit of happiness, which was originally property. 221 00:10:39,505 --> 00:10:41,365 But, uh, we'll let that slide for a moment. 222 00:10:41,425 --> 00:10:44,245 So, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness 223 00:10:45,065 --> 00:10:49,965 are the things that government comes into being in order 224 00:10:49,985 --> 00:10:51,845 to preserve or to defend that 225 00:10:51,845 --> 00:10:53,365 that's the purpose and end of politics. 226 00:10:53,365 --> 00:10:54,485 And there's really no other purpose 227 00:10:54,585 --> 00:10:56,125 or end of politics other than 228 00:10:56,645 --> 00:10:59,645 securing those individual rights, the life, the rights 229 00:10:59,645 --> 00:11:01,965 of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 230 00:11:03,145 --> 00:11:05,645 And for a long time in American history, this form 231 00:11:05,645 --> 00:11:07,965 of liberalism was largely believed to be achieved, 232 00:11:07,965 --> 00:11:11,205 especially by simply leaving people alone, laissez-faire, 233 00:11:12,345 --> 00:11:13,485 let people do what they want to do. 234 00:11:13,485 --> 00:11:15,965 There was a lot of land, a lot of places to move. 235 00:11:15,965 --> 00:11:17,245 If you didn't like the people you were with, 236 00:11:17,245 --> 00:11:18,605 you could go and move somewhere else. 237 00:11:19,095 --> 00:11:21,805 Start a new state, start a new, you know, 238 00:11:22,145 --> 00:11:24,125 new new city, start a new religion. 239 00:11:24,155 --> 00:11:25,165 It's the American tradition. 240 00:11:25,165 --> 00:11:27,965 It's the American dream, you know, it's, it's paw, it's paw, 241 00:11:28,225 --> 00:11:29,885 wilder, uh, uh, uh, you know, 242 00:11:30,025 --> 00:11:32,045 paw from the little house in the prairie whenever they, 243 00:11:32,245 --> 00:11:33,765 whenever you saw smoke on the horizon, 244 00:11:33,905 --> 00:11:36,445 people have moved close to us, ma, it's time to move. 245 00:11:36,505 --> 00:11:38,125 He would, you know, move the family somewhere else. 246 00:11:38,385 --> 00:11:40,805 And the whole book was then about going to the new place, 247 00:11:40,945 --> 00:11:42,525 and ma would set up home. 248 00:11:42,595 --> 00:11:46,325 That was the whole book. That's kind of the American story. 249 00:11:46,335 --> 00:11:48,445 Leave me alone and let me pursue my rights. 250 00:11:49,145 --> 00:11:52,005 But interestingly, of course, we kind of ran outta room 251 00:11:52,015 --> 00:11:53,925 after a while, at least lots 252 00:11:53,925 --> 00:11:55,845 of the nicest places got filled. 253 00:11:56,185 --> 00:11:58,925 Uh, and, uh, Pensacola obviously being one 254 00:11:58,925 --> 00:12:01,845 of those nice places that's fairly full now, getting fuller, 255 00:12:02,705 --> 00:12:04,645 uh, so that we had to figure out how to live together. 256 00:12:04,745 --> 00:12:07,085 So simply leaving alone wasn't, uh, 257 00:12:07,085 --> 00:12:09,045 wasn't doing it at least for a lot of people. 258 00:12:09,115 --> 00:12:12,805 That, to be left alone wasn't sufficient 259 00:12:12,805 --> 00:12:15,845 to achieving the condition of equal liberty, of being able 260 00:12:15,845 --> 00:12:18,245 to pursue life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, 261 00:12:18,745 --> 00:12:19,765 uh, on our own. 262 00:12:20,745 --> 00:12:23,085 And so this is where left liberalism 263 00:12:23,085 --> 00:12:25,885 or progressivism really began in the early part 264 00:12:25,885 --> 00:12:27,525 of the 20th century, which is 265 00:12:27,525 --> 00:12:29,445 that people need the assistance of government, 266 00:12:30,395 --> 00:12:32,245 they need the assistant of government to have 267 00:12:32,965 --> 00:12:35,405 relative economic equality, at least to have a kind 268 00:12:35,405 --> 00:12:37,165 of equal starting position in life. 269 00:12:37,265 --> 00:12:39,445 We need to, you know, uh, 270 00:12:39,675 --> 00:12:42,525 address the racial inequality of our country. 271 00:12:42,945 --> 00:12:44,405 Uh, we, you know, things that, uh, 272 00:12:44,605 --> 00:12:45,965 governor Askew was really concerned about. 273 00:12:46,145 --> 00:12:47,885 How do we, how do we, how do we have adequate 274 00:12:47,885 --> 00:12:50,285 and fair representation in our electoral system? 275 00:12:50,385 --> 00:12:53,325 How do we, how do we overcome racial discrimination? 276 00:12:53,325 --> 00:12:55,045 These are, these are a great legacy 277 00:12:55,425 --> 00:12:57,725 of your former governor who's in whose honor, 278 00:12:57,945 --> 00:13:01,245 I'm really delighted and honored to speak in, uh, uh, for, 279 00:13:01,345 --> 00:13:03,725 uh, in, in, in, in light of that, uh, uh, 280 00:13:03,725 --> 00:13:07,725 that honor tonight, this form 281 00:13:07,725 --> 00:13:09,925 of liberalism then, um, begins 282 00:13:09,925 --> 00:13:11,645 with a belief in laissez-faire. 283 00:13:11,645 --> 00:13:13,525 Leave us alone, let us do what we want to do. 284 00:13:14,265 --> 00:13:17,805 But increasingly becomes, um, I could say its competitor, 285 00:13:17,985 --> 00:13:20,565 its internal competitor becomes a way 286 00:13:20,565 --> 00:13:23,445 of thinking about politics in which the positive governing 287 00:13:23,535 --> 00:13:26,285 philosophy seeks to extend this form 288 00:13:26,285 --> 00:13:29,205 of equal liberty into especially the social domain, 289 00:13:29,665 --> 00:13:32,245 not merely as an economic domain, uh, 290 00:13:32,885 --> 00:13:34,365 economic approach of laissez-faire. 291 00:13:34,865 --> 00:13:37,805 But seeing that the positive role of government is 292 00:13:37,805 --> 00:13:39,525 to help us secure individual liberty. 293 00:13:40,305 --> 00:13:42,245 But really what I, what I wanna stress here is 294 00:13:42,245 --> 00:13:46,485 that underlying both the kind of the, what we think of 295 00:13:46,485 --> 00:13:49,965 as the kind of traditional conservative, laissez-faire view 296 00:13:50,345 --> 00:13:52,125 of politics, leave us alone. 297 00:13:53,105 --> 00:13:56,125 And the progressive view of politics, government needs 298 00:13:56,125 --> 00:13:59,365 to assist us is that the end is shared, the end is the same. 299 00:13:59,365 --> 00:14:00,725 And this is what makes them both liberal. 300 00:14:01,195 --> 00:14:03,445 That the end is the achievement 301 00:14:03,445 --> 00:14:05,965 of equal liberty freedom from each other 302 00:14:07,025 --> 00:14:08,485 to the greatest extent possible. 303 00:14:08,485 --> 00:14:09,805 That's what makes us free. 304 00:14:09,905 --> 00:14:12,565 That's what makes us equally free, ultimately, 305 00:14:12,905 --> 00:14:14,045 is freedom from each other. 306 00:14:15,465 --> 00:14:17,445 So we begin with a kind of political freedom, 307 00:14:17,815 --> 00:14:20,445 which is equated with an, with an economic freedom, 308 00:14:20,735 --> 00:14:23,925 which is especially associated with right, 309 00:14:23,985 --> 00:14:25,445 or classical liberalism. 310 00:14:26,995 --> 00:14:29,855 But then we see it extend into a kind of social form 311 00:14:29,855 --> 00:14:32,055 of freedom that becomes, especially associated 312 00:14:32,445 --> 00:14:33,655 with left liberalism 313 00:14:33,675 --> 00:14:36,095 or progressive liberalism, the freedom from arbitrary, 314 00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:40,095 arbitrary situations, arbitrary memberships 315 00:14:40,955 --> 00:14:43,335 or arbitrary identities, the word du jour. 316 00:14:43,675 --> 00:14:47,975 Not to, not to be a, not to have an identity ascribed 317 00:14:47,995 --> 00:14:49,295 to me that I haven't chosen. 318 00:14:49,675 --> 00:14:50,775 And notice that the base 319 00:14:50,835 --> 00:14:53,245 and root of this is the condition of human beings 320 00:14:53,545 --> 00:14:54,845 as completely free 321 00:14:54,865 --> 00:14:59,245 and sovereign choosers, that the aim of liberalism is to, 322 00:14:59,425 --> 00:15:02,605 is in some ways to either assume that we are free 323 00:15:02,605 --> 00:15:05,525 and sovereign choosers, or to make us into free 324 00:15:05,545 --> 00:15:06,685 and sovereign choosers. 325 00:15:06,705 --> 00:15:10,005 And the debate has lied, has generally laid in the kind 326 00:15:10,005 --> 00:15:12,685 of difference of means to achieving that end. 327 00:15:14,275 --> 00:15:16,925 Well, this is, this is what I take issue with in this book, 328 00:15:16,925 --> 00:15:18,325 that the first book that, uh, 329 00:15:18,415 --> 00:15:21,965 David mentioned why liberalism failed, in which I, 330 00:15:22,245 --> 00:15:23,405 I make the argument that one 331 00:15:23,405 --> 00:15:25,645 that has been at least sufficiently familiar to many people, 332 00:15:26,235 --> 00:15:30,305 that we have become more and more free in this sense, more 333 00:15:30,305 --> 00:15:32,625 and more autonomous, more and more free of each other. 334 00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:36,465 And the more free we have become of each other, in a sense, 335 00:15:36,765 --> 00:15:40,585 the more miserable we are, the more we are afflicted 336 00:15:40,815 --> 00:15:44,705 with a whole kind of a, a, a plethora 337 00:15:45,685 --> 00:15:47,985 of social ills and social diseases. 338 00:15:48,685 --> 00:15:50,105 And the lower, in a sense, 339 00:15:50,105 --> 00:15:52,825 you are on the socioeconomic scale, the worse off you are, 340 00:15:53,005 --> 00:15:55,745 the freer you are, the more you're liberated from family 341 00:15:56,125 --> 00:15:58,825 and community and associations and religion. 342 00:15:59,135 --> 00:16:02,625 Well, you're free, but your life isn't going that well. 343 00:16:02,625 --> 00:16:05,305 We have a lot of social science data to show this. 344 00:16:06,925 --> 00:16:11,705 The thinker that maybe, uh, understood, um, this course 345 00:16:12,045 --> 00:16:16,625 and this trajectory of liberal democracy, uh, 346 00:16:16,685 --> 00:16:18,705 was none other than the figure who, 347 00:16:18,725 --> 00:16:20,185 who frequently appears in my books 348 00:16:20,285 --> 00:16:23,545 and who, uh, uh, we talked a bit about today in our class, 349 00:16:23,665 --> 00:16:26,105 Alexis de Tocqueville, the French thinker who comes 350 00:16:26,105 --> 00:16:30,305 to America and examines this new form of government 351 00:16:30,305 --> 00:16:33,585 and this new way of life, this new social system, in order 352 00:16:33,605 --> 00:16:36,705 to advise his fellow Frenchmen about 353 00:16:36,705 --> 00:16:37,945 what they can anticipate. 354 00:16:38,405 --> 00:16:41,505 And there's a passage in, uh, book one of, uh, 355 00:16:41,505 --> 00:16:45,265 democracy in America, where he talks specifically about 356 00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:47,585 what he thinks is one of the key features 357 00:16:47,725 --> 00:16:49,505 of modern democracy. 358 00:16:49,725 --> 00:16:51,625 He calls it. And he means liberal democracy, 359 00:16:51,725 --> 00:16:53,025 or not classical democracy. 360 00:16:53,645 --> 00:16:56,025 Not the Greek, not the Greek form of democracy 361 00:16:56,095 --> 00:16:57,185 that kills Socrates, 362 00:16:57,405 --> 00:16:59,905 but modern democracy that holds equal liberty up 363 00:17:00,325 --> 00:17:02,385 as its ideal liberal democracy. 364 00:17:03,605 --> 00:17:07,065 And in a puzzling an interesting passage, Tocqueville states 365 00:17:07,695 --> 00:17:11,905 that liberal democracies have a hostility to forms. 366 00:17:12,855 --> 00:17:14,145 They're hostile to forms. 367 00:17:14,725 --> 00:17:16,705 And this passage has always kind of arrested me 368 00:17:16,705 --> 00:17:19,225 and fascinated me because it seems to be 369 00:17:19,765 --> 00:17:22,465 an interesting window into a key aspect of 370 00:17:22,465 --> 00:17:23,905 what this liberalism is 371 00:17:23,905 --> 00:17:25,105 that I'm speaking about here tonight. 372 00:17:25,105 --> 00:17:27,105 So I'm gonna show you a quote from Tocqueville. 373 00:17:27,105 --> 00:17:29,625 It's a long quote. I'll read at least some of it. 374 00:17:30,085 --> 00:17:31,385 So it's from Democracy in America. 375 00:17:31,695 --> 00:17:36,425 Book one, chapter seven, he says, forms arouse the disdain 376 00:17:36,765 --> 00:17:39,545 of Americans, of liberal people, Democrats, 377 00:17:39,545 --> 00:17:41,785 liberal Democrats, and often they're hatred. 378 00:17:42,655 --> 00:17:45,305 They usually aspire to none but facile 379 00:17:45,445 --> 00:17:46,825 and immediate enjoyments. 380 00:17:47,255 --> 00:17:49,845 They rush impetuously toward the object of each 381 00:17:49,845 --> 00:17:53,565 of their desires, and the least delays exasperate them. 382 00:17:54,315 --> 00:17:57,285 This temperament which they transport into political life, 383 00:17:58,125 --> 00:18:01,605 disposes them against the forms which daily hold them up 384 00:18:02,025 --> 00:18:04,725 or prevent them in one or another of their designs. 385 00:18:05,665 --> 00:18:08,565 Yet is it, is this inconvenience, which men 386 00:18:08,565 --> 00:18:12,805 of democracies find in forms that makes them so useful 387 00:18:12,805 --> 00:18:16,605 to liberty their principle merit being to serve as a barrier 388 00:18:16,835 --> 00:18:18,565 between the strong and the weak. 389 00:18:19,025 --> 00:18:21,605 The governed, I'm sorry, the government and the governed. 390 00:18:22,315 --> 00:18:25,525 Thus democratic peoples naturally have more need 391 00:18:25,725 --> 00:18:27,485 of forms than other people's, 392 00:18:27,785 --> 00:18:29,685 and naturally respect them less. 393 00:18:29,765 --> 00:18:32,005 I think I left off a van than that, 394 00:18:32,035 --> 00:18:36,125 than than other people's, but naturally respect them less. 395 00:18:36,705 --> 00:18:38,605 So we can, we can begin to think what he means by this, 396 00:18:38,605 --> 00:18:40,285 at least in the way he, he speaks of this here. 397 00:18:40,305 --> 00:18:44,085 So, so for example, one form of forms, one way 398 00:18:44,085 --> 00:18:45,565 of thinking about forms are laws 399 00:18:46,185 --> 00:18:49,885 and the various kinds of the ways that laws are passed, 400 00:18:50,055 --> 00:18:52,725 which take a long time, and they're kind of frustrating. 401 00:18:52,745 --> 00:18:55,165 And there's a, you know, a lot of process that's involved 402 00:18:55,165 --> 00:18:56,165 with a lot of give and take 403 00:18:56,185 --> 00:18:57,965 and a lot of various steps that have to be taken. 404 00:18:58,375 --> 00:19:02,165 Forms are difficult. They take a lot of activity. 405 00:19:02,825 --> 00:19:04,685 And to pass a law, you have 406 00:19:04,685 --> 00:19:07,365 to do things like have formalities even in the legislation. 407 00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:08,485 Robert's rule of order. 408 00:19:08,505 --> 00:19:09,725 How many of you have been in meetings or 409 00:19:09,725 --> 00:19:11,165 how did somebody gonna second this? 410 00:19:11,225 --> 00:19:12,685 And did we, did we move the question, 411 00:19:12,685 --> 00:19:13,805 what are, you know, how long? 412 00:19:14,555 --> 00:19:17,485 Just to know what it takes to pass a piece of legislature? 413 00:19:17,485 --> 00:19:20,085 These are forms, these are the forms 414 00:19:20,085 --> 00:19:23,885 that Tocqueville is speaking of, that in democratic ages, 415 00:19:24,095 --> 00:19:26,405 there will be an impatience with these forms. 416 00:19:26,615 --> 00:19:28,125 We'll just want to get things done really quick. 417 00:19:28,175 --> 00:19:30,285 Can't we just have this law immediately? 418 00:19:30,415 --> 00:19:31,645 Can't we just get this thing done? 419 00:19:32,945 --> 00:19:36,325 But Tocqueville's passage here is his, what he's speaking 420 00:19:36,325 --> 00:19:39,405 of here touches on more than just even the kind of 421 00:19:40,515 --> 00:19:42,805 more narrowly political understanding of forms. 422 00:19:42,825 --> 00:19:45,285 And it really touches on just about every aspect of life. 423 00:19:45,305 --> 00:19:48,725 And in fact, in the back of his mind, as you can see, well, 424 00:19:48,725 --> 00:19:50,125 maybe not from this picture a little bit, 425 00:19:50,125 --> 00:19:52,485 you can see he's wearing a morning coat. 426 00:19:52,585 --> 00:19:54,205 His collars up 427 00:19:55,025 --> 00:19:57,925 his name alone should indicate he's an aristocrat. 428 00:19:58,425 --> 00:19:59,645 Alexis de Tocqueville. 429 00:19:59,865 --> 00:20:02,125 He is de Tocqueville, he is of the estate 430 00:20:02,265 --> 00:20:04,445 and of the family of Tocqueville, still is a, 431 00:20:04,545 --> 00:20:07,925 has a beautiful estate in Normandy, France, still owned 432 00:20:07,925 --> 00:20:08,925 by the Tocqueville family, 433 00:20:09,025 --> 00:20:11,165 and it had been owned in, uh, by the family 434 00:20:11,775 --> 00:20:14,725 since the property was, uh, was, was given 435 00:20:14,725 --> 00:20:17,445 to his great-Great, great, great, great-great grandfather 436 00:20:17,575 --> 00:20:20,205 after the, uh, invasion of Britain 437 00:20:20,345 --> 00:20:23,365 or the invasion, the, the William the Conqueror invades 438 00:20:23,365 --> 00:20:25,525 Britannia or invades, uh, what 439 00:20:25,525 --> 00:20:28,365 what eventually becomes Great Britain went all the way back 440 00:20:28,365 --> 00:20:30,325 to 10 66 in the Battle of Hastings, 441 00:20:30,325 --> 00:20:31,925 the Tocqueville estate and the Tocqueville name. 442 00:20:32,955 --> 00:20:35,525 He's an aristocrat who's coming to America to see 443 00:20:36,235 --> 00:20:37,605 what this new regime is. 444 00:20:37,605 --> 00:20:40,885 And in his mind, he's constantly comparing the old regime, 445 00:20:40,885 --> 00:20:43,325 the ossian regime, the aristocracy 446 00:20:43,785 --> 00:20:45,365 to this new regime of the democracy. 447 00:20:46,105 --> 00:20:47,885 He understands some 448 00:20:47,885 --> 00:20:51,325 of the key differences lying in this difference between 449 00:20:52,065 --> 00:20:54,965 how aristocrats and aristocrats view forms 450 00:20:55,585 --> 00:20:57,285 and how democracies will view forms. 451 00:20:58,265 --> 00:21:00,125 And in many ways, he says they're kind of, 452 00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:02,125 they're both broken, they're both have a problem. 453 00:21:03,835 --> 00:21:06,605 Aristos are filled with formality. 454 00:21:07,185 --> 00:21:10,325 That's one of the defining features of an aristocracy. 455 00:21:10,715 --> 00:21:14,085 Very formal, very formalized, lots of formality, lots 456 00:21:14,085 --> 00:21:18,045 of formalism, lots of emphasis upon titles 457 00:21:18,705 --> 00:21:22,445 and ranks and one status, right? 458 00:21:22,685 --> 00:21:24,765 I was looking, I I put it into Google. 459 00:21:24,965 --> 00:21:27,765 I said, aristocratic picture of an aristocrat. 460 00:21:27,765 --> 00:21:28,845 And that's the first thing that came up. 461 00:21:28,865 --> 00:21:31,605 The most noble Lord, Horatio Nelson vi count 462 00:21:31,605 --> 00:21:32,725 and Baron of the Nile. 463 00:21:33,305 --> 00:21:35,845 That's just kind of his day daily nickname. 464 00:21:36,705 --> 00:21:38,565 And that's his sort of, that's his leisure wear. 465 00:21:39,435 --> 00:21:40,565 This is, if you've been to London 466 00:21:40,585 --> 00:21:42,925 and been to Drew a Fogger square, this is the, the, 467 00:21:43,625 --> 00:21:45,765 the pillar with Nelson on the top of the pillar. 468 00:21:45,765 --> 00:21:48,365 This is that, that Nelson who wins, uh, 469 00:21:48,875 --> 00:21:50,245 it's a Greek naval battle. 470 00:21:51,955 --> 00:21:54,005 This is, this is an aristocrat, right? 471 00:21:54,145 --> 00:21:56,165 And we know that he's an aristocrat. He's a lord. 472 00:21:56,165 --> 00:21:58,885 He's a and barren, and you can tell this immediately 473 00:21:58,885 --> 00:22:02,285 because of what he's wearing, how his hair is cut. 474 00:22:02,465 --> 00:22:05,685 But all of the insignia, the various stripes, the metals, 475 00:22:06,025 --> 00:22:09,085 the ts, all of the various, you know, 476 00:22:10,465 --> 00:22:12,525 the various sort of signals 477 00:22:12,625 --> 00:22:16,765 and signs of his nobility are evident to us so that we know 478 00:22:17,275 --> 00:22:20,285 through his formality, how he's dressed, how he appears, 479 00:22:20,635 --> 00:22:23,325 what he's wearing, what his status is. 480 00:22:24,985 --> 00:22:28,045 In, in a lot of ways, since I'm in Pensacola, it's fitting 481 00:22:28,065 --> 00:22:30,925 to, to, to note and acknowledge we still have a legacy 482 00:22:31,145 --> 00:22:33,205 or a remnant of this sort 483 00:22:33,205 --> 00:22:35,805 of aristocratic legacy in our military, right? 484 00:22:35,985 --> 00:22:37,285 You can tell someone's rank 485 00:22:37,305 --> 00:22:39,285 and status by, you know, what, 486 00:22:39,285 --> 00:22:40,485 how many bars they're wearing. 487 00:22:40,585 --> 00:22:43,925 And you know, I I, I'm not, I haven't been in the military, 488 00:22:43,925 --> 00:22:45,405 those of you who thank you, those who were, 489 00:22:45,465 --> 00:22:46,725 but you know, you know this well, 490 00:22:46,745 --> 00:22:48,845 if you've been in the military, you immediately are, 491 00:22:48,955 --> 00:22:50,925 it's expected, you know, someone's rank 492 00:22:50,945 --> 00:22:53,245 and how you are to behave in relationship to that person, 493 00:22:53,475 --> 00:22:54,605 depending on their rank. 494 00:22:54,625 --> 00:22:56,845 And there's certain kinds of responses 495 00:22:56,845 --> 00:22:58,525 that are expected depending on your 496 00:22:58,525 --> 00:22:59,885 rank, vis-a-vis someone else. 497 00:23:01,705 --> 00:23:05,125 So in an aristocratic society, one's dress is a reflection 498 00:23:05,125 --> 00:23:07,565 of one's status and one's rank. 499 00:23:08,335 --> 00:23:10,245 One's mannerisms are reflections 500 00:23:10,265 --> 00:23:11,765 of one's status and one's rank. 501 00:23:11,985 --> 00:23:15,565 One can immediately tell from one's accent how one speaks, 502 00:23:16,135 --> 00:23:20,845 one's mannerisms, whether one is a, uh, whether one is a, 503 00:23:20,865 --> 00:23:24,365 uh, you know, what rank of one aristo 504 00:23:24,365 --> 00:23:25,605 of one's aristocrat is. 505 00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:29,045 Compare that then to a democracy. What is democracy? 506 00:23:29,075 --> 00:23:31,125 What are its features outside the military? 507 00:23:31,125 --> 00:23:34,765 Perhaps in a few other parts of democracy? 508 00:23:35,065 --> 00:23:36,365 Stress informality. 509 00:23:36,785 --> 00:23:40,125 We prize informality because we prize equality. 510 00:23:40,905 --> 00:23:44,485 We don't like to differentiate ourselves according to rank 511 00:23:44,585 --> 00:23:47,125 and status, even where there is rank and status. 512 00:23:47,665 --> 00:23:48,845 I'm a full professor. 513 00:23:48,845 --> 00:23:50,525 We actually still have ranks in universities. 514 00:23:50,525 --> 00:23:52,845 There's assistant professors, they get me coffee. 515 00:23:53,275 --> 00:23:56,045 There's the associate professors, they can hang around. 516 00:23:56,045 --> 00:23:57,165 Then there's the full professors, 517 00:23:57,165 --> 00:23:58,485 and then there's the really important ones. 518 00:23:58,485 --> 00:24:00,525 The endowed professors not there yet, 519 00:24:01,425 --> 00:24:03,365 but the full professors, that's the kind 520 00:24:03,365 --> 00:24:04,885 of the highest rank we're the generals 521 00:24:04,885 --> 00:24:06,365 of the university, right? 522 00:24:06,365 --> 00:24:08,325 But at a university, we don't call each other. 523 00:24:08,595 --> 00:24:09,965 Like if I was teaching in Germany, 524 00:24:10,585 --> 00:24:12,365 my assistant professor colleagues would've to come up 525 00:24:12,365 --> 00:24:15,245 to say, Hey, professor ine, hey, doctor, professor, 526 00:24:15,305 --> 00:24:16,685 my wife would be Dr. 527 00:24:16,755 --> 00:24:20,445 Professor, right? They still have these kind of ranks. 528 00:24:20,465 --> 00:24:22,805 But American universities, we just call each other 529 00:24:22,825 --> 00:24:24,205 by our first names, our colleagues. 530 00:24:24,265 --> 00:24:26,725 And our, our students sometimes call us by our first names. 531 00:24:26,825 --> 00:24:29,365 At least they say, Hey, you or sometimes dude. 532 00:24:29,905 --> 00:24:34,405 Uh, but we prize informality in democratic societies. 533 00:24:34,845 --> 00:24:37,085 Contrast the most noble Lord, Horatio Nelson, 534 00:24:37,135 --> 00:24:38,725 who's only a vi count 535 00:24:38,745 --> 00:24:43,045 and a barren with a very recent picture of three presidents 536 00:24:43,045 --> 00:24:44,925 of our country, sometimes called 537 00:24:44,925 --> 00:24:46,245 the greatest country in the world. 538 00:24:47,235 --> 00:24:49,365 Here are three presidents of our country. 539 00:24:49,945 --> 00:24:51,605 You have to pick 'em out. Which ones are they? 540 00:24:53,945 --> 00:24:57,085 And this was this, this caused quite a, a wave 541 00:24:57,085 --> 00:25:01,125 of controversy and commentary on the internet recently, uh, 542 00:25:01,125 --> 00:25:03,245 because not there was believed to be the first picture 543 00:25:03,305 --> 00:25:06,245 of three presidents not wearing a tie at the same time. 544 00:25:06,945 --> 00:25:11,045 So dressed down Friday, uh, at a fundraiser in New York City 545 00:25:11,115 --> 00:25:12,125 with a couple of actors. 546 00:25:12,745 --> 00:25:15,805 So, uh, again, it's, it's tough to pick out 547 00:25:15,825 --> 00:25:17,405 who the presidents are here, fortunately, 548 00:25:17,405 --> 00:25:18,645 not the one all the way on the left. 549 00:25:18,645 --> 00:25:20,245 That's not one of our former presidents 550 00:25:20,245 --> 00:25:23,525 or sitting presidents in America. 551 00:25:23,705 --> 00:25:24,965 We prize informality. 552 00:25:24,965 --> 00:25:27,125 And there literally is now dress down Fridays. 553 00:25:27,125 --> 00:25:28,645 And of course, most days of the week, 554 00:25:28,645 --> 00:25:29,805 increasingly our dress down. 555 00:25:30,185 --> 00:25:32,405 One response to this picture was celebration. 556 00:25:32,405 --> 00:25:36,365 That ties are going the way of, you know, the vi count, uh, 557 00:25:36,505 --> 00:25:38,445 the vi counts, where that in the, you know, 558 00:25:38,465 --> 00:25:40,725 in the near future, we will, we'll get rid 559 00:25:40,725 --> 00:25:44,285 of not just this kind of, sorry, this kind of, uh, this kind 560 00:25:44,285 --> 00:25:46,965 of outfit, but we'll get rid of the tie, uh, that, 561 00:25:46,965 --> 00:25:48,485 that will go the way of the dodo bird. 562 00:25:48,745 --> 00:25:50,525 So the hope is that we'll become a more informal 563 00:25:50,585 --> 00:25:52,165 and more egalitarian society. 564 00:25:52,675 --> 00:25:55,965 Alright? I, I'm staying at a place on Pensacola Beach, 565 00:25:55,965 --> 00:25:58,325 and there was a, there's a little history book about 566 00:25:58,325 --> 00:26:00,645 Pensacola, and I was struck, I'm thinking about this talk 567 00:26:00,985 --> 00:26:04,845 of a picture of beach goers on Pensacola Beach in 1903. 568 00:26:04,855 --> 00:26:06,125 Don't they look like they're really 569 00:26:06,125 --> 00:26:07,325 comfortable and having a good time? 570 00:26:08,945 --> 00:26:11,605 Oh, getting a tan. Nothing like it. Yeah. 571 00:26:12,275 --> 00:26:13,525 Yeah, this was, I mean, they, 572 00:26:13,525 --> 00:26:14,685 they were really dressed down here. 573 00:26:14,885 --> 00:26:15,885 'cause notice they're, you know, the 574 00:26:15,905 --> 00:26:17,245 frocks are off and so forth. 575 00:26:18,325 --> 00:26:20,625 But, uh, as compared to Panama City 576 00:26:20,685 --> 00:26:24,385 and, uh, in the last few years, so which one is 1903, 577 00:26:24,385 --> 00:26:25,385 which one is 2020s? 578 00:26:25,975 --> 00:26:28,745 Hard to tell. We are much more informal of society, 579 00:26:28,765 --> 00:26:31,745 and I think it's fair to say, uh, we don't necessarily want 580 00:26:31,745 --> 00:26:33,265 to go like this to the beach. 581 00:26:33,565 --> 00:26:36,145 Um, but this doesn't appeal to me very much either. 582 00:26:36,505 --> 00:26:39,305 I have to say, I don't like to dress up on the beach, 583 00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:41,465 but, you know, that's not my scene either. 584 00:26:42,605 --> 00:26:47,445 We prize informality in democracies, informality, obviously, 585 00:26:47,445 --> 00:26:49,445 of titles and rank even where it exists. 586 00:26:49,665 --> 00:26:53,005 We prize informality. We prize informality of dress. 587 00:26:53,625 --> 00:26:55,525 We prize informality of manners. 588 00:26:56,945 --> 00:26:59,445 If you think about it, there's an entire genre of movies 589 00:26:59,625 --> 00:27:04,325 and shows in the United States that celebrate America's sort 590 00:27:04,325 --> 00:27:08,885 of easygoing egalitarianism as compared to those stuffy 591 00:27:09,485 --> 00:27:13,445 stickler Brits, especially the, the Brits are full 592 00:27:13,445 --> 00:27:16,965 of these mannerisms, like Lord vi Count, Horatio Alger. 593 00:27:17,225 --> 00:27:19,805 And so there's all these movies in which Americans, 594 00:27:19,805 --> 00:27:22,405 it's discovered that an American turns out he's royalty, 595 00:27:22,405 --> 00:27:24,405 or she's royalty and have to go to England 596 00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:25,685 and live with the royal family. 597 00:27:26,105 --> 00:27:27,845 And they find that there are a bunch of sticklers 598 00:27:27,905 --> 00:27:29,845 and stuffy old boars, 599 00:27:30,225 --> 00:27:32,405 and they introduce a little life and fun to the places. 600 00:27:32,545 --> 00:27:34,605 So whether it's, uh, princess Diary 601 00:27:34,985 --> 00:27:37,565 or King Ralph, uh, 602 00:27:37,665 --> 00:27:39,365 or my favorite version of this is 603 00:27:39,365 --> 00:27:40,965 what a Brit living in New York City 604 00:27:41,345 --> 00:27:44,405 who eats his snicker bars with a fork and knife. 605 00:27:45,425 --> 00:27:48,005 Do you know what I'm talking about? Seinfeld, right? 606 00:27:48,135 --> 00:27:52,245 Which then George Costanza picks up, how else would you eat? 607 00:27:52,245 --> 00:27:53,965 And people say, why are you eating a Snickers bar 608 00:27:53,965 --> 00:27:55,005 with a knife and fork? 609 00:27:55,005 --> 00:27:57,605 And George says, how do you eat it with your hands? 610 00:27:58,715 --> 00:28:00,565 It's a great moment because it's a 611 00:28:00,565 --> 00:28:02,005 hilarious moment because Mr. 612 00:28:02,235 --> 00:28:06,885 Pitt, Elaine's boss eats his, eats his snicker bar with a, 613 00:28:06,885 --> 00:28:07,885 with a fork and knife. 614 00:28:08,185 --> 00:28:10,485 And George says, oh, you know how those society types are, 615 00:28:10,485 --> 00:28:12,005 they have all these funny mannerisms. 616 00:28:12,345 --> 00:28:14,325 And of course, by the end of the show, if you know the show, 617 00:28:14,585 --> 00:28:15,765 if you're of a certain age, 618 00:28:16,185 --> 00:28:19,405 but here, it's coming back now in Netflix, uh, by the end 619 00:28:19,405 --> 00:28:22,605 of the show, everyone is eating their dessert cookies 620 00:28:22,865 --> 00:28:24,645 and candy bars with a fork and knife. 621 00:28:24,645 --> 00:28:26,965 And Elaine is outraged and saying, have you all gone crazy? 622 00:28:27,105 --> 00:28:28,605 You know, can't believe you're not. 623 00:28:28,605 --> 00:28:31,565 You're acting like crazy stuck up British people eating 624 00:28:32,075 --> 00:28:33,325 with these utensils. 625 00:28:34,465 --> 00:28:39,005 So Americans are much more relaxed, informal. 626 00:28:39,505 --> 00:28:41,165 We prize this informality part, 627 00:28:41,165 --> 00:28:43,445 and this is what toil is speaking of when he says 628 00:28:43,445 --> 00:28:47,245 that Americans will be hostile to forms, will have a kind 629 00:28:47,245 --> 00:28:49,725 of hostility to formality and formalism. 630 00:28:51,155 --> 00:28:55,605 Aristocrats create forms everywhere they can. 631 00:28:56,865 --> 00:29:01,285 And often indeed, very often, where they're not justified 632 00:29:02,195 --> 00:29:03,895 trying to distinguish those 633 00:29:03,955 --> 00:29:05,535 who are on an upper class from those 634 00:29:05,555 --> 00:29:08,135 who are in a lower class trying to draw distinctions 635 00:29:08,135 --> 00:29:11,575 where no actual distinctions at least naturally exist, 636 00:29:12,355 --> 00:29:15,975 trying to create all kinds of categories. 637 00:29:16,355 --> 00:29:17,535 And this is what Tocqueville's saying, 638 00:29:18,405 --> 00:29:20,695 aristocrats create forms everywhere. 639 00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:23,335 Democracies seek to tear them down. 640 00:29:24,275 --> 00:29:25,895 But here's the problem with democracies. 641 00:29:25,895 --> 00:29:29,895 He suggests democracies want to be informal. 642 00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:32,815 Even where there are should be forms, even 643 00:29:32,815 --> 00:29:36,135 where forms are justified, there'll be such a hostility 644 00:29:36,135 --> 00:29:39,335 to forms that all forms will come under a kind 645 00:29:39,335 --> 00:29:42,485 of attack in the effort to create a kind of leveled 646 00:29:42,985 --> 00:29:45,645 and un informal or de formalized world. 647 00:29:46,665 --> 00:29:47,725 And so, among the things 648 00:29:47,725 --> 00:29:52,405 that will become under duress in a democracy are the variety 649 00:29:52,465 --> 00:29:55,005 and differences of cultures that are distinct, 650 00:29:55,515 --> 00:29:58,085 that separate us, that distinguish people, 651 00:29:58,475 --> 00:30:01,805 that people will want to escape from the kind 652 00:30:01,805 --> 00:30:03,685 of arbitrary nature of cultures 653 00:30:03,705 --> 00:30:06,885 and traditions, to the point in which they just become a 654 00:30:06,885 --> 00:30:08,965 kind of a form of dress. 655 00:30:09,675 --> 00:30:12,765 Like a silly hat you wear on St. Patrick's Day, alright? 656 00:30:12,875 --> 00:30:15,005 What green shirts you wear on St. Patrick's Day. 657 00:30:15,005 --> 00:30:18,405 The actual culture of the Irish who come 658 00:30:18,405 --> 00:30:20,245 to America will evaporate 659 00:30:20,585 --> 00:30:22,125 and it will become just kind of 660 00:30:22,675 --> 00:30:24,845 flattened in which everyone can be an Irishman 661 00:30:24,845 --> 00:30:26,005 for a day, right? 662 00:30:26,005 --> 00:30:28,205 And every culture becomes under this duress 663 00:30:28,205 --> 00:30:29,885 and becomes flattened until the point 664 00:30:30,055 --> 00:30:32,645 where all the cultures really just become consumer products 665 00:30:32,825 --> 00:30:34,125 and what makes them distinct. 666 00:30:34,355 --> 00:30:36,885 What defines a kind of human being according 667 00:30:36,885 --> 00:30:39,445 to these cultures and traditions evaporates. 668 00:30:39,785 --> 00:30:41,285 And here we can say, yes, this is true. 669 00:30:41,315 --> 00:30:44,485 This is arbitrary, this is a good thing that cultures ceased 670 00:30:44,485 --> 00:30:46,565 to, in some ways be these kind 671 00:30:46,565 --> 00:30:49,245 of definitive containers of humanity. 672 00:30:50,465 --> 00:30:54,285 But in a way, uh, uh, what a variety of thinkers 673 00:30:54,285 --> 00:30:55,805 who are more sympathetic 674 00:30:55,825 --> 00:30:58,565 to cultures in the democratic setting have argued, is 675 00:30:58,565 --> 00:31:00,525 that many of these are actually based in kind 676 00:31:00,525 --> 00:31:02,125 of aspects of our nature. 677 00:31:03,305 --> 00:31:05,925 How we, how we approach things like coming of age, 678 00:31:06,745 --> 00:31:08,165 how we approach things like marriage, 679 00:31:08,985 --> 00:31:11,765 how we approach becoming a parent, how we approach death, 680 00:31:12,355 --> 00:31:15,925 that all cultures in a sense have been, have been kind 681 00:31:15,925 --> 00:31:19,965 of educated us into ways of have of, of entering into these 682 00:31:21,325 --> 00:31:25,005 enormous life changing, life transforming moments 683 00:31:25,035 --> 00:31:26,365 that every human life has. 684 00:31:26,385 --> 00:31:28,765 And in the name of freeing us from these were freed from the 685 00:31:28,775 --> 00:31:31,765 kinds of traditions that allowed us 686 00:31:31,985 --> 00:31:34,445 and encouraged us to think about the various stations 687 00:31:34,445 --> 00:31:36,685 of life and stages of life that we were entering 688 00:31:36,985 --> 00:31:38,045 and the kind of stations 689 00:31:38,045 --> 00:31:40,125 that we were taking on and we're left. 690 00:31:40,125 --> 00:31:41,365 We leave people in the sense 691 00:31:41,585 --> 00:31:44,645 to their own devices when it comes to those times of lives. 692 00:31:45,785 --> 00:31:47,365 But even if culture could be regarded 693 00:31:47,365 --> 00:31:48,525 as in some ways arbitrary, 694 00:31:48,655 --> 00:31:50,285 there are other distinctions that are not. 695 00:31:50,745 --> 00:31:53,005 And today we're, of course we're seeing the claim 696 00:31:53,005 --> 00:31:55,005 that there's a natural distinction between a man 697 00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,925 and a woman coming under duress, coming under attack, 698 00:31:58,355 --> 00:32:01,045 precisely because in democracies, we don't like the fact 699 00:32:01,045 --> 00:32:02,845 that there are forms and differences, 700 00:32:03,595 --> 00:32:06,005 that these formalities in some ways are reflections 701 00:32:06,005 --> 00:32:09,165 of something natural, natural differences between a man 702 00:32:09,245 --> 00:32:12,085 and a woman that we seek to minimize 703 00:32:12,825 --> 00:32:15,565 and ultimately, if possible, to erase. 704 00:32:16,665 --> 00:32:18,445 And since we've just celebrated Easter, 705 00:32:19,485 --> 00:32:22,085 I have at least we could say that of course the ultimate 706 00:32:22,675 --> 00:32:25,525 form to be erased is the, is the difference between God 707 00:32:25,525 --> 00:32:28,005 and man, the difference, the distinction 708 00:32:28,005 --> 00:32:29,805 between the divine and the human. 709 00:32:29,865 --> 00:32:31,605 And of course, the implications for this 710 00:32:31,825 --> 00:32:34,965 as regards religion, that in a democratic society, 711 00:32:35,025 --> 00:32:36,325 the distinction between God 712 00:32:36,325 --> 00:32:38,805 and man will be increasingly erased. 713 00:32:39,105 --> 00:32:41,925 We will all, in a sense, have God within us. 714 00:32:42,065 --> 00:32:44,365 If you're a fan of Ralph Waldo Emerson 715 00:32:44,365 --> 00:32:47,405 and you read his Harvard Divinity School address, the 1830s, 716 00:32:47,715 --> 00:32:49,885 this is Ralph Waldo Emerson's entire point. 717 00:32:50,175 --> 00:32:52,205 Jesus wasn't a, wasn't the son of God. 718 00:32:53,275 --> 00:32:54,575 He wasn't actually a divinity. 719 00:32:54,715 --> 00:32:56,935 He just expresses the divinity that we all have, 720 00:32:56,965 --> 00:32:58,175 that we all possess. 721 00:32:58,965 --> 00:33:00,695 He's just a symbol of the fact 722 00:33:00,695 --> 00:33:03,015 that we're all gods, we're Gods and men. 723 00:33:03,035 --> 00:33:06,015 So he's just kind of a representation of the divine 724 00:33:06,015 --> 00:33:07,255 that we all have within us. 725 00:33:07,255 --> 00:33:09,055 This is a very democratic moment. 726 00:33:09,085 --> 00:33:12,055 It's striking that Emerson writes this speech 727 00:33:12,115 --> 00:33:14,375 for the Harvard Divinity School around the same time 728 00:33:14,375 --> 00:33:18,655 that toque Bill writes that passage, the 1830s, 1840s. 729 00:33:19,355 --> 00:33:22,255 So Emerson is the Democrat erasing the distinction 730 00:33:22,255 --> 00:33:23,255 between God and man. 731 00:33:23,565 --> 00:33:25,495 Tocqueville is the aristocrat saying, this is 732 00:33:25,495 --> 00:33:26,735 what democracy is going to do. 733 00:33:27,165 --> 00:33:29,255 Tocqueville is among the first to recognize 734 00:33:29,405 --> 00:33:32,455 that there's gonna be tremendous pressure on liturgy. 735 00:33:33,395 --> 00:33:35,575 The idea that there are sort of orthodoxies, 736 00:33:36,165 --> 00:33:37,375 certain thou shall 737 00:33:37,395 --> 00:33:40,735 and thou shalt nots, ways that you worship God. 738 00:33:41,125 --> 00:33:42,775 Very formal ways. Those of you 739 00:33:42,775 --> 00:33:45,135 who might be Catholic like myself, there are very, 740 00:33:45,135 --> 00:33:46,775 very formal kinds of liturgies. 741 00:33:46,915 --> 00:33:49,815 But if one has watched the Catholic liturgy 742 00:33:49,815 --> 00:33:52,495 or other liturgies over the years, it's become more informal 743 00:33:53,075 --> 00:33:57,695 to the point where some people regard the Catholic masses no 744 00:33:57,695 --> 00:34:01,055 longer eit because it's so informal, it's so chill 745 00:34:01,485 --> 00:34:03,255 that priest is just kind of hanging out 746 00:34:03,605 --> 00:34:05,015 with everyday people. 747 00:34:05,075 --> 00:34:06,495 And this is one of the big kind 748 00:34:06,495 --> 00:34:08,095 of battles within the Catholic church right now, 749 00:34:08,095 --> 00:34:10,375 is whether the liturgy should be much more formal. 750 00:34:10,675 --> 00:34:11,735 The old Latin mass. 751 00:34:11,995 --> 00:34:12,975 And Pope Francis said, 752 00:34:12,975 --> 00:34:14,135 no, we're not gonna allow that anymore. 753 00:34:14,605 --> 00:34:15,775 It's getting democratized. 754 00:34:17,535 --> 00:34:19,095 I, I encounter a lot of young people 755 00:34:19,095 --> 00:34:21,815 and not young people whose mantra is, is 756 00:34:21,815 --> 00:34:24,015 that I'm spiritual, but not religious. 757 00:34:24,515 --> 00:34:25,815 You may have even said this yourself, 758 00:34:26,275 --> 00:34:27,735 I'm spiritual, but not religious. 759 00:34:27,795 --> 00:34:30,095 And what does this mean? This is a democratic moment in 760 00:34:30,175 --> 00:34:34,855 which I sense there's something out there, something that I 761 00:34:35,795 --> 00:34:38,615 regard as divine or as transcendent. 762 00:34:38,715 --> 00:34:39,815 But I don't wanna have anything to do 763 00:34:39,815 --> 00:34:42,375 with any organized religion that's too formal. 764 00:34:42,755 --> 00:34:45,935 That's a, that's an imposition on my sort of freedom 765 00:34:46,155 --> 00:34:48,935 to encounter the divine in the way that I wish. 766 00:34:50,085 --> 00:34:53,055 Okay? I wanna talk today though, 767 00:34:53,575 --> 00:34:56,295 specifically about a few forms of informality that I think 768 00:34:56,295 --> 00:34:58,815 that I see as particularly worrisome and problematic. 769 00:34:59,065 --> 00:35:01,335 These are all examples of things which you may 770 00:35:01,335 --> 00:35:02,815 or may not agree as problematic. 771 00:35:02,815 --> 00:35:04,215 But I wanna talk about some formalities 772 00:35:04,765 --> 00:35:07,335 that I think you may agree with me. 773 00:35:07,335 --> 00:35:08,575 Whether you agree with me politically 774 00:35:08,575 --> 00:35:10,535 or not, you may agree with me that these are problems 775 00:35:11,435 --> 00:35:13,895 and these formalities are in some ways you could say the 776 00:35:13,895 --> 00:35:16,975 forms of organization around which it seems 777 00:35:16,975 --> 00:35:19,175 to me a human life is 778 00:35:19,235 --> 00:35:22,015 or is not in some ways oriented. 779 00:35:22,465 --> 00:35:24,255 Lemme begin, lemme begin with a survey 780 00:35:24,255 --> 00:35:26,895 that was released in the Wall Street Journal just about a 781 00:35:26,895 --> 00:35:29,655 year ago in March of 2023. 782 00:35:30,155 --> 00:35:33,215 And it reported on some changing values in America. 783 00:35:33,955 --> 00:35:37,095 So this was the, this was the headline, March 27th. 784 00:35:37,345 --> 00:35:39,165 So just about a year ago, just a little over, 785 00:35:39,315 --> 00:35:42,125 America pulls back from values that once defined it. 786 00:35:42,265 --> 00:35:44,485 And I, I'm struck by this 'cause it's not just America. 787 00:35:44,485 --> 00:35:46,965 These are values that in the sense have defined every 788 00:35:46,965 --> 00:35:49,165 civilization, but, uh, this is 789 00:35:49,805 --> 00:35:50,925 specifically, uh, about America. 790 00:35:51,465 --> 00:35:54,245 So this is the survey it said, it asks people 791 00:35:54,635 --> 00:35:56,565 what values are very important to you. 792 00:35:56,825 --> 00:36:00,325 And it measured it. The first time it was measured was 1998. 793 00:36:00,385 --> 00:36:05,005 So 25 years before the 2023, uh, uh, survey. 794 00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:09,825 And five of these, uh, categories, uh, were the, 795 00:36:09,825 --> 00:36:11,145 were the most frequently mentioned. 796 00:36:11,525 --> 00:36:14,785 The first of these was patriotism. The second was religion. 797 00:36:15,325 --> 00:36:17,025 The third was having children, a family. 798 00:36:17,525 --> 00:36:19,305 The fourth was community involvement, 799 00:36:19,525 --> 00:36:20,585 and the fifth was money. 800 00:36:21,335 --> 00:36:23,435 So these are the, the, the differences 801 00:36:23,435 --> 00:36:25,355 between the three surveys 802 00:36:25,355 --> 00:36:29,795 that were taken in 19 98, 1 in 2019, and one in 2023. 803 00:36:30,135 --> 00:36:33,915 Now you notice the lines with really just one exception, 804 00:36:33,915 --> 00:36:37,115 which is a little bit, kind of an interesting one. 805 00:36:37,115 --> 00:36:39,875 The community involvement one, they all go in one direction, 806 00:36:40,655 --> 00:36:42,595 not the same direction, but they all go in one direction. 807 00:36:42,595 --> 00:36:44,515 Most of them are going in one direction, which is down. 808 00:36:44,775 --> 00:36:46,075 Here's the actual percentages. 809 00:36:46,495 --> 00:36:48,595 So in 19 98, 25 years 810 00:36:48,595 --> 00:36:50,275 before the survey was published last year, 811 00:36:51,225 --> 00:36:52,875 this was the response of values 812 00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:53,915 that are very important to them. 813 00:36:53,975 --> 00:36:57,835 So 70% of people in 1998 Americans said 814 00:36:57,835 --> 00:36:59,555 that patriotism was very important to them. 815 00:37:00,245 --> 00:37:03,195 62% said religion was very important to them. 816 00:37:03,725 --> 00:37:06,875 59% said that having children was very important to them. 817 00:37:07,205 --> 00:37:11,075 47% being involved in community was very important to them. 818 00:37:11,655 --> 00:37:14,235 And notice this, only 31% said 819 00:37:14,235 --> 00:37:16,315 that money was very important to 'em. 820 00:37:16,495 --> 00:37:17,875 That's really quite extraordinary. 821 00:37:18,995 --> 00:37:20,435 I don't know what was going on in 1998. 822 00:37:20,475 --> 00:37:23,395 I don't know those of you old, you know, maybe somewhere 823 00:37:23,395 --> 00:37:26,395 around my age, older, somewhere in that vicinity. 824 00:37:26,775 --> 00:37:29,315 You probably remember in 1998 thinking, 825 00:37:29,335 --> 00:37:30,515 man, everything's going to hell. 826 00:37:31,035 --> 00:37:33,955 Everything's really bad if country's in a bad way. 827 00:37:34,275 --> 00:37:35,675 1998, everything seemed to be terrible. 828 00:37:36,215 --> 00:37:37,275 That's how bad it was. 829 00:37:37,275 --> 00:37:41,515 70% people are patriotic, you know, 60% religious, 60%. 830 00:37:41,535 --> 00:37:43,155 So more than 50% until you get 831 00:37:43,155 --> 00:37:45,155 to community cared about things that were 832 00:37:45,225 --> 00:37:46,515 outside of themselves. 833 00:37:47,915 --> 00:37:50,125 They cared about things that called out a 834 00:37:50,125 --> 00:37:51,245 form of self-sacrifice. 835 00:37:51,745 --> 00:37:52,845 And that was when we thought things 836 00:37:52,845 --> 00:37:53,965 were going to hell in a hand basket. 837 00:37:54,105 --> 00:37:57,805 Now, 25 years later, let's look in 2023, 838 00:37:57,865 --> 00:37:59,085 the same survey is taken. 839 00:37:59,465 --> 00:38:02,245 38% say that patriotism is very important to them. 840 00:38:02,465 --> 00:38:05,005 39% say religion is very important to them. 841 00:38:05,505 --> 00:38:08,565 30% say that children are very important to them. 842 00:38:08,565 --> 00:38:11,205 27% community is very important to them. 843 00:38:11,505 --> 00:38:14,645 And notice, 43% say that money is very important to them. 844 00:38:15,155 --> 00:38:17,805 None of these breach 50%, those are people 845 00:38:17,805 --> 00:38:18,805 who don't care about anything. 846 00:38:19,825 --> 00:38:22,165 But if they care about something at least more times 847 00:38:22,355 --> 00:38:23,445 than not, it's money. 848 00:38:23,865 --> 00:38:25,045 Here's the differences. 849 00:38:26,735 --> 00:38:31,305 Patriot has a minus 32% religion minus 23 children minus 29, 850 00:38:31,305 --> 00:38:33,665 community minus 20 and money plus 12. 851 00:38:33,685 --> 00:38:35,885 And they broke it down by Democrats and Republicans. 852 00:38:36,125 --> 00:38:39,165 Republicans actually did better on the first four of these. 853 00:38:39,315 --> 00:38:41,845 Well, the first three, they didn't do as well in community. 854 00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:43,205 Republicans didn't like community, 855 00:38:43,505 --> 00:38:45,605 but they had exactly the same percentage of money. 856 00:38:45,605 --> 00:38:47,685 43% Democrats and, 857 00:38:47,785 --> 00:38:49,805 and Republicans both stated 858 00:38:49,805 --> 00:38:53,365 that they cared about money the most. 859 00:38:58,855 --> 00:39:00,875 So I don't know about you, but I'm concerned about this. 860 00:39:02,365 --> 00:39:04,085 I think, um, I think Tocqueville was right. 861 00:39:05,615 --> 00:39:07,635 And it's not just whether or not we eat snicker bars 862 00:39:08,025 --> 00:39:09,075 with a fork and a knife. 863 00:39:09,985 --> 00:39:13,435 Just, yeah, I, I like formality, 864 00:39:13,905 --> 00:39:14,995 like going out to a nice dinner. 865 00:39:15,555 --> 00:39:18,355 I like dressing up my students Notice, professor, 866 00:39:18,355 --> 00:39:20,155 you always wear a different suit jacket to class. 867 00:39:20,335 --> 00:39:23,395 That's 'cause I always wanted to come to class and show you. 868 00:39:23,475 --> 00:39:25,755 I care about it. I care about formality. 869 00:39:26,115 --> 00:39:28,955 I think it's important to, as Tocqueville suggests, to try 870 00:39:28,955 --> 00:39:30,835 to push back against the spirit of the age. 871 00:39:31,055 --> 00:39:32,195 But this is the real stuff. 872 00:39:33,025 --> 00:39:34,915 This is the stuff that affects all of our lives 873 00:39:35,095 --> 00:39:37,875 and affects the lives, especially of people who aren't doing 874 00:39:37,875 --> 00:39:38,955 as well in our society. 875 00:39:39,885 --> 00:39:40,985 Anyone, whether you're a liberal 876 00:39:41,045 --> 00:39:43,025 or conservative, whatever you consider yourself on the 877 00:39:43,025 --> 00:39:47,185 political spectrum when it comes to one's likelihood 878 00:39:47,245 --> 00:39:50,345 of being engaged in the kinds of activities that draw you 879 00:39:50,345 --> 00:39:53,255 outside of yourself in which you show your care 880 00:39:53,255 --> 00:39:54,415 and affection and willingness 881 00:39:54,415 --> 00:39:56,095 to self sacrifice for the sake of others. 882 00:39:56,405 --> 00:39:58,615 That if a country's not doing well on that front, 883 00:39:58,935 --> 00:39:59,975 a country's not doing well. 884 00:39:59,995 --> 00:40:02,135 And especially those who are the least well off are not 885 00:40:02,135 --> 00:40:03,335 doing well on that front. 886 00:40:03,835 --> 00:40:05,215 So we all ought to care about that. 887 00:40:06,095 --> 00:40:07,315 So now I'm gonna get a little bit partisan, 888 00:40:07,375 --> 00:40:09,435 and I hope you'll forgive me, but I think 889 00:40:09,705 --> 00:40:11,715 that we need a new governing philosophy. 890 00:40:11,825 --> 00:40:14,875 He's my title of my book, which is After Liberalism. 891 00:40:15,915 --> 00:40:17,835 I think the, both the right liberals 892 00:40:17,835 --> 00:40:19,275 and the left liberals, the progressives 893 00:40:19,275 --> 00:40:22,635 and the conservatives are both in a sense participating in 894 00:40:22,635 --> 00:40:25,275 this decline of forms in this way. 895 00:40:26,215 --> 00:40:27,835 And I wanna suggest at least we need 896 00:40:27,835 --> 00:40:29,715 to rethink our governing philosophy. 897 00:40:30,975 --> 00:40:33,475 I'm, I grew up, I mentioned this in the class today, 898 00:40:33,675 --> 00:40:35,395 I grew up as an Irish Catholic, 899 00:40:35,515 --> 00:40:36,635 I mean, still am an Irish Catholic. 900 00:40:36,635 --> 00:40:37,995 I grew up as an Irish Catholic Democrat, 901 00:40:38,055 --> 00:40:39,235 and my grandmother had a picture 902 00:40:39,235 --> 00:40:41,035 of John F. Kennedy in the Pope in her kitchen. 903 00:40:41,055 --> 00:40:42,875 That's that, those were like the saints. 904 00:40:44,495 --> 00:40:47,795 But I found myself either drifting from my old party 905 00:40:47,815 --> 00:40:49,275 or my old party drifted from me. 906 00:40:49,315 --> 00:40:50,675 Because I find increasingly 907 00:40:50,675 --> 00:40:53,475 that the progressives in our society are the party 908 00:40:53,615 --> 00:40:58,115 of informality or host or hostility to forms. 909 00:40:59,105 --> 00:41:01,275 It's indeed, I think increasing the f the party 910 00:41:01,275 --> 00:41:03,035 that is in its commitments 911 00:41:03,035 --> 00:41:06,635 to equal liberty has become an accelerant of the kind 912 00:41:06,635 --> 00:41:09,875 of anti formm basis of our society. 913 00:41:10,495 --> 00:41:13,235 The ways in which, especially on these categories, 914 00:41:14,515 --> 00:41:19,035 increasingly, um, we find ourselves in this deficit 915 00:41:20,255 --> 00:41:21,345 less than 50%. 916 00:41:23,095 --> 00:41:24,815 I think that, so I'm gonna put up a different, 917 00:41:26,855 --> 00:41:29,595 so four forms under duress, family, community, nation, 918 00:41:29,875 --> 00:41:31,795 religion, I was gonna go 919 00:41:31,795 --> 00:41:33,205 through prove to you this was the case. 920 00:41:33,205 --> 00:41:34,285 There's a lot of statistics 921 00:41:34,285 --> 00:41:35,405 showing that everything's declining. 922 00:41:35,465 --> 00:41:36,645 So I'm not gonna go through all that. 923 00:41:37,585 --> 00:41:41,885 So I want to talk a little bit then about 924 00:41:42,645 --> 00:41:43,885 progressive liberals, right? 925 00:41:43,885 --> 00:41:45,285 Liberals Con inc. 926 00:41:45,385 --> 00:41:46,725 The conservative, the kind 927 00:41:46,725 --> 00:41:48,245 of traditional conservative party, the kind 928 00:41:48,245 --> 00:41:49,885 of think tank conservative world. 929 00:41:50,185 --> 00:41:53,045 And then how I sort of categorize myself as a kind 930 00:41:53,045 --> 00:41:54,845 of postliberal and talk about each of these. 931 00:41:55,465 --> 00:41:56,725 So I think in the first instance 932 00:41:56,725 --> 00:41:58,405 that progressive liberals today, 933 00:41:58,445 --> 00:42:00,485 I think we could talk about in ways, 934 00:42:00,545 --> 00:42:02,605 and you may disagree with me and I'm happy to talk with you 935 00:42:02,865 --> 00:42:04,205 and answer any questions about this, 936 00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:06,405 but I think increasingly I've becomes, uh, uh, 937 00:42:06,945 --> 00:42:10,365 in a way the party of hostility toward these forms, 938 00:42:10,945 --> 00:42:13,405 toward these kind of containers, in which 939 00:42:13,635 --> 00:42:17,405 through organizations that train us and discipline us 940 00:42:17,425 --> 00:42:21,525 and call out forms of self sacrifice, ha has become a kind 941 00:42:21,525 --> 00:42:24,645 of accelerant of, of this aspect of liberalism, 942 00:42:24,785 --> 00:42:26,525 the liberal hostility forms 943 00:42:26,705 --> 00:42:29,445 and formality in the first instance. 944 00:42:29,605 --> 00:42:31,645 I think that the, the stance 945 00:42:31,665 --> 00:42:35,005 of being anti traditional family, while it is in the guise, 946 00:42:35,005 --> 00:42:37,085 especially, and not merely at the guise, but, 947 00:42:37,185 --> 00:42:40,605 but presents itself as a defense of any kind of family, 948 00:42:40,785 --> 00:42:43,245 has actually tended to undermine families 949 00:42:43,265 --> 00:42:45,445 as a whole in the United States today. 950 00:42:46,095 --> 00:42:48,605 Gonna give one piece 1 1, 1 example of this. 951 00:42:48,605 --> 00:42:50,525 This was, uh, from 2016, a kind 952 00:42:50,525 --> 00:42:53,005 of infamous quote from a commercial that was 953 00:42:53,005 --> 00:42:54,965 for M-S-N-B-C called Lean Forward. 954 00:42:55,115 --> 00:42:58,645 Melissa Harris Perry, who was a, uh, commentator on that, 955 00:42:59,425 --> 00:43:01,245 and I don't disagree with all of this, 956 00:43:01,245 --> 00:43:02,885 but the way in which it's stated is 957 00:43:03,175 --> 00:43:04,485 seems to be really problematic. 958 00:43:05,105 --> 00:43:07,165 We have never invested as much in public education 959 00:43:07,165 --> 00:43:09,045 as we should have because we've always been kind of, 960 00:43:09,055 --> 00:43:11,085 we've always had a kind of private notion of children, 961 00:43:11,155 --> 00:43:13,365 your kid is yours and totally your responsibility. 962 00:43:13,665 --> 00:43:15,285 We haven't had a very collective notion 963 00:43:15,285 --> 00:43:17,605 of these are our children, she said on our spot 964 00:43:17,605 --> 00:43:19,645 for the network's Lean Forward campaign. 965 00:43:19,865 --> 00:43:21,925 So part of it's we have to break through a kind 966 00:43:21,925 --> 00:43:24,085 of private idea that kids belong to their parents 967 00:43:24,145 --> 00:43:26,965 or kids so that belong to their families and, 968 00:43:27,185 --> 00:43:29,885 and recognize that kids belong to their whole communities. 969 00:43:30,085 --> 00:43:31,885 I don't disagree with every aspect of this, 970 00:43:31,885 --> 00:43:34,085 and I think there is something too narrow about the idea 971 00:43:34,085 --> 00:43:36,525 that families are separate from their communities, 972 00:43:36,985 --> 00:43:38,805 but it's the way in which this is kind of phrase 973 00:43:38,805 --> 00:43:40,765 that I think a lot of people took umbrage with 974 00:43:40,785 --> 00:43:44,045 and I find myself taking umbrage with, uh, which is 975 00:43:44,045 --> 00:43:46,325 that it places in some ways families in a kind 976 00:43:46,325 --> 00:43:48,285 of secondary condition or position. 977 00:43:48,285 --> 00:43:50,485 Whereas I think maybe the, the way 978 00:43:50,485 --> 00:43:52,645 to think about this is there should be a kind of continuity 979 00:43:52,755 --> 00:43:55,245 between what families are doing and communities are doing 980 00:43:55,265 --> 00:43:57,245 and not pitting them against each other. 981 00:43:58,505 --> 00:44:03,165 So that a kind of a stance of anti traditional family is one 982 00:44:03,165 --> 00:44:06,285 that I, that I think, uh, has come increasingly to define, 983 00:44:06,625 --> 00:44:09,165 uh, the political left of progressivism in a way 984 00:44:09,165 --> 00:44:12,005 that wasn't true when I was growing up in New England, 985 00:44:12,065 --> 00:44:15,165 in the, uh, in the kind of old ethnic 986 00:44:16,415 --> 00:44:18,645 Irish Catholic democratic world. 987 00:44:20,285 --> 00:44:22,605 A preference for the idea of global governance. 988 00:44:23,385 --> 00:44:27,925 Um, that, uh, um, has been especially arisen in response 989 00:44:27,925 --> 00:44:31,245 to what's seen as the kind of parochialism of localisms, 990 00:44:31,865 --> 00:44:34,445 the, the way in which localisms are a kind of threat 991 00:44:34,505 --> 00:44:37,005 or impinge upon our individual liberty. 992 00:44:37,345 --> 00:44:41,155 How can we be truly free if we aren't in some ways capable 993 00:44:41,255 --> 00:44:43,035 of transcending our particular places? 994 00:44:43,615 --> 00:44:46,795 So a, a move toward an embrace of more global governance, 995 00:44:48,495 --> 00:44:52,155 uh, obviously today, very decidedly a kind of opposition 996 00:44:52,215 --> 00:44:54,235 to anything that smacks of nationalism. 997 00:44:54,235 --> 00:44:55,515 Certainly this is a stance 998 00:44:55,545 --> 00:44:57,915 that has really become heated in the wake 999 00:44:57,935 --> 00:44:59,515 of Donald Trump's election 1000 00:44:59,515 --> 00:45:01,875 and Donald Trump as a kind of figure who seems 1001 00:45:01,875 --> 00:45:03,195 to represent nationalism. 1002 00:45:03,695 --> 00:45:06,555 Uh, but this, this view was already pretty prevalent, uh, 1003 00:45:06,555 --> 00:45:07,875 even before Donald Trump. 1004 00:45:08,395 --> 00:45:11,595 A kind of suspicion of the nation as, as merely an extension 1005 00:45:11,595 --> 00:45:13,875 of something too parochial if localities are 1006 00:45:13,875 --> 00:45:15,755 to too parochial, so to our nations, 1007 00:45:16,065 --> 00:45:17,395 nations are too parochial. 1008 00:45:17,735 --> 00:45:20,515 Uh, I used to teach at Princeton University, uh, 1009 00:45:20,665 --> 00:45:23,315 Princeton's motto in the 20th century, 1010 00:45:23,535 --> 00:45:25,595 and then at the end of the 19th into the 20th century, 1011 00:45:25,595 --> 00:45:28,475 which is introduced by Woodrow Wilson was in the nation 1012 00:45:28,475 --> 00:45:30,555 service that was in its informal not 1013 00:45:30,555 --> 00:45:32,275 motto in the nation service. 1014 00:45:32,695 --> 00:45:34,395 At the time I was teaching at Princeton, 1015 00:45:34,395 --> 00:45:37,595 this motto was updated and in the service of all nations. 1016 00:45:37,975 --> 00:45:40,395 And then this was updated even more recently to say, 1017 00:45:40,615 --> 00:45:41,915 and in the service of the globe. 1018 00:45:42,495 --> 00:45:44,795 So the kind of constant ratcheting up 1019 00:45:44,825 --> 00:45:46,715 that we can't simply define 1020 00:45:46,715 --> 00:45:48,675 or think of ourselves in these parochial ways. 1021 00:45:49,375 --> 00:45:51,675 So increasingly a kind of suspicion of those 1022 00:45:51,775 --> 00:45:55,195 who regard patriotism as something of value. 1023 00:45:55,255 --> 00:45:57,275 And I think that has an effect on some 1024 00:45:57,275 --> 00:45:59,435 of those statistics, uh, that we've been seeing. 1025 00:46:00,815 --> 00:46:02,595 And then of course, I think it's fair to say 1026 00:46:02,595 --> 00:46:06,115 that we have increasingly a political left 1027 00:46:06,295 --> 00:46:10,555 that's becoming much more visibly secular 1028 00:46:10,815 --> 00:46:12,395 and hostile to people of faith. 1029 00:46:12,735 --> 00:46:14,155 And I think this is quite unfortunate. 1030 00:46:14,155 --> 00:46:15,515 This was always something that wasn't 1031 00:46:15,515 --> 00:46:16,595 true in the United States. 1032 00:46:16,945 --> 00:46:18,315 It's been more true in Europe 1033 00:46:18,405 --> 00:46:21,315 where the left parties influenced under the kind 1034 00:46:21,315 --> 00:46:22,955 of Marxist tradition were always kind 1035 00:46:22,955 --> 00:46:25,355 of anti-religion in the states. 1036 00:46:25,465 --> 00:46:27,995 That was never really the case, uh, 1037 00:46:27,995 --> 00:46:31,115 but has become the case more so, uh, recently, 1038 00:46:32,135 --> 00:46:37,085 which I think is quite unfortunate me turn to the, the kind 1039 00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:39,165 of, uh, what we think of as the kind of traditional, right, 1040 00:46:39,515 --> 00:46:42,925 what I describe as right liberals, uh, the the kind 1041 00:46:42,925 --> 00:46:44,365 of classical liberals. 1042 00:46:44,745 --> 00:46:48,845 And here I think it's, uh, I think the contrast is that the, 1043 00:46:49,905 --> 00:46:50,965 the, the kind 1044 00:46:50,965 --> 00:46:54,085 of traditional conservative position largely positions 1045 00:46:54,085 --> 00:46:55,685 itself against the progressives. 1046 00:46:55,795 --> 00:46:59,765 It's largely a kind of trying to slow, uh, 1047 00:46:59,825 --> 00:47:02,405 or to blunt the sort of progress 1048 00:47:03,065 --> 00:47:05,485 of the anti formalists, right? 1049 00:47:05,585 --> 00:47:07,525 So to in many ways to preserve 1050 00:47:07,525 --> 00:47:12,045 that which hasn't been overly weakened yet to try to sl stop 1051 00:47:12,145 --> 00:47:15,525 or slow, uh, what it sees as the, uh, 1052 00:47:15,745 --> 00:47:17,725 has the advance of this agenda. 1053 00:47:18,305 --> 00:47:21,685 And so it has a kind of defensive posture, it's a kind of, 1054 00:47:21,685 --> 00:47:23,845 it's a defensive posture that, that sort of says, 1055 00:47:23,845 --> 00:47:25,045 let's stop or slow this. 1056 00:47:25,465 --> 00:47:28,005 So I think the way in which in particular, um, 1057 00:47:28,505 --> 00:47:31,805 the family agenda has been articulated on the right, 1058 00:47:31,845 --> 00:47:33,365 I probably don't have to tell you this here in the state 1059 00:47:33,365 --> 00:47:35,685 of Florida, the kind of anti DEI 1060 00:47:35,825 --> 00:47:39,605 or anti woke your governor loves the phrase woke 1061 00:47:39,705 --> 00:47:43,045 or the term woke, the emphasis on parental rights. 1062 00:47:43,045 --> 00:47:45,965 And this has proved to be on the right, it's proved 1063 00:47:45,965 --> 00:47:47,365 to be a kind of successful, 1064 00:47:47,745 --> 00:47:50,485 at least moderately successful ele electoral strategy. 1065 00:47:50,985 --> 00:47:52,885 Uh, so, uh, uh, 1066 00:47:52,935 --> 00:47:56,285 Glenn Kin in Virginia won widely believed won, uh, 1067 00:47:56,665 --> 00:48:00,205 the governorship unexpectedly in 2019, running on kind of a, 1068 00:48:00,205 --> 00:48:02,485 this this platform of parental rights, uh, 1069 00:48:02,915 --> 00:48:06,245 anti covid stance, anti shutdown stance, uh, 1070 00:48:06,425 --> 00:48:09,605 and kind of anti DEI stance, uh, in the schools. 1071 00:48:10,225 --> 00:48:12,285 Um, but, but it's a kind of, again, 1072 00:48:12,285 --> 00:48:13,525 it's a kind of defensive position. 1073 00:48:13,625 --> 00:48:16,285 We don't want you guys doing these things, right? 1074 00:48:16,395 --> 00:48:19,565 It's, it's, it's, uh, not manifesting itself as a kind of 1075 00:48:20,275 --> 00:48:22,005 what can we do to help the family. 1076 00:48:22,065 --> 00:48:25,525 In fact, the Democrats have kind of owned the, the agenda of 1077 00:48:25,525 --> 00:48:27,925 what can we do to help the family, at least if that means 1078 00:48:28,145 --> 00:48:30,005 how can both parents work outside of the house 1079 00:48:30,345 --> 00:48:34,205 and we, we can afford, you know, some subsistence, 1080 00:48:34,205 --> 00:48:36,445 some assistance for people to be able 1081 00:48:36,445 --> 00:48:38,165 to afford daycare, right? 1082 00:48:38,165 --> 00:48:39,405 But that's, that's, uh, that's, 1083 00:48:39,405 --> 00:48:40,725 that's an actual positive agenda 1084 00:48:40,725 --> 00:48:42,445 that the Republicans generally haven't had. 1085 00:48:42,445 --> 00:48:43,965 It's been a largely negative one. 1086 00:48:43,995 --> 00:48:48,205 Stop doing that, don't do that anymore when it comes 1087 00:48:48,225 --> 00:48:52,525 to community, well, until recently, at least the, the, 1088 00:48:52,585 --> 00:48:55,405 the belief was that global markets rather than a kind 1089 00:48:55,405 --> 00:48:58,365 of global governance was the, was was should be the agenda 1090 00:48:58,505 --> 00:49:00,405 of the Republican party. 1091 00:49:00,585 --> 00:49:03,525 So the, uh, the agenda of opening up markets, 1092 00:49:03,985 --> 00:49:07,125 having open markets, uh, was believed to be, uh, 1093 00:49:07,125 --> 00:49:09,845 even if it was damaging to particular communities, it was 1094 00:49:09,865 --> 00:49:11,565 for the good of the entire nation, certainly 1095 00:49:11,565 --> 00:49:12,645 for the good of consumers. 1096 00:49:12,985 --> 00:49:15,685 And if it had a bail full effect in parts of the Midwest 1097 00:49:15,685 --> 00:49:18,565 and elsewhere, well people could move so that there was, 1098 00:49:18,565 --> 00:49:21,005 that people could get in a car and go elsewhere. 1099 00:49:22,305 --> 00:49:24,325 It seems to me increasingly on the, on the level of 1100 00:49:24,385 --> 00:49:28,365 how we think about the nation, the kind of, you know, the, 1101 00:49:28,505 --> 00:49:31,765 the, the current right liberal position is 1102 00:49:31,765 --> 00:49:32,965 to be opposed to immigration. 1103 00:49:33,455 --> 00:49:35,525 We're gonna secure the borders. That's, that's the position. 1104 00:49:35,615 --> 00:49:37,925 We'll secure the borders and that will secure the nation. 1105 00:49:38,625 --> 00:49:39,605 So it's taken a largely 1106 00:49:39,785 --> 00:49:41,885 anti-immigration position, build the wall. 1107 00:49:42,625 --> 00:49:43,845 And lastly, and, 1108 00:49:43,945 --> 00:49:47,525 and maybe, uh, distinctively, uh, I teach at Notre Dame 1109 00:49:47,525 --> 00:49:50,685 where this is maybe the big agenda of our law school, uh, 1110 00:49:50,685 --> 00:49:52,165 which is to defend religious liberty. 1111 00:49:52,165 --> 00:49:56,365 That religious liberty is the, the one of the main objects 1112 00:49:56,365 --> 00:49:57,725 and purposes increasingly of those 1113 00:49:57,745 --> 00:50:00,565 who are engaged in efforts to sort of preserve 1114 00:50:00,585 --> 00:50:03,725 or to defend religions from the increasingly what's seen 1115 00:50:03,725 --> 00:50:05,565 as aggressive secularism of the left. 1116 00:50:05,665 --> 00:50:09,965 So kind of defend the spaces of those who worship, uh, 1117 00:50:10,025 --> 00:50:12,685 and, uh, and the practice of religion in those spaces. 1118 00:50:16,205 --> 00:50:18,085 I wanna suggest that the, in a way that 1119 00:50:18,155 --> 00:50:20,245 what the right liberal position is, 1120 00:50:20,305 --> 00:50:22,085 is really a kind of reactive one. 1121 00:50:22,475 --> 00:50:26,245 It's simply reacting to the latest advance of a kind 1122 00:50:26,245 --> 00:50:27,765 of anti formalism. 1123 00:50:28,865 --> 00:50:31,765 But the problem with the current right position as far 1124 00:50:31,765 --> 00:50:33,885 as I see, is that if Tocqueville is right, 1125 00:50:33,995 --> 00:50:38,205 it's not just the left that's producing this anti formalism, 1126 00:50:38,515 --> 00:50:40,205 it's the nature of our political order. 1127 00:50:41,035 --> 00:50:43,525 It's the very essence of our political order, right? 1128 00:50:43,665 --> 00:50:46,885 We are going to be attracted to informality, 1129 00:50:47,665 --> 00:50:49,925 to the breaking down of forms. 1130 00:50:50,785 --> 00:50:53,605 So, um, this is a form this hemlock that I'm holding here, 1131 00:50:54,105 --> 00:50:56,125 and if it wasn't in this container, 1132 00:50:56,145 --> 00:50:57,685 it would be spilled all over the place. 1133 00:50:57,905 --> 00:51:00,565 We don't like forms and some of those forms are family 1134 00:51:00,755 --> 00:51:04,365 because they're constraints on this water going anywhere 1135 00:51:04,465 --> 00:51:05,605 or me going anywhere. 1136 00:51:05,985 --> 00:51:08,205 And we don't necessarily particularly want 1137 00:51:08,205 --> 00:51:10,645 to be too overly invested and involved in our communities 1138 00:51:10,755 --> 00:51:13,085 because that limits who I can be. 1139 00:51:13,825 --> 00:51:16,445 And we don't want to be overly invested in the nation 1140 00:51:16,895 --> 00:51:18,865 because that defines who much who I am. 1141 00:51:20,385 --> 00:51:22,065 I want to be able in some sense, to think of myself 1142 00:51:22,065 --> 00:51:26,305 as a citizen of the world in a, in an anti formal world 1143 00:51:26,965 --> 00:51:28,905 and in, and as Tocqueville points out, 1144 00:51:29,395 --> 00:51:31,705 there will be a real temptation to think of oneself 1145 00:51:31,725 --> 00:51:34,305 as a kind of God or to think of that god 1146 00:51:34,325 --> 00:51:35,825 and man as fundamentally equal. 1147 00:51:35,855 --> 00:51:38,825 There's a kind of movement toward anti formality 1148 00:51:38,845 --> 00:51:39,945 in all aspects of life. 1149 00:51:40,165 --> 00:51:43,865 So simply to say, we're going to stop, we're gonna slow. 1150 00:51:43,865 --> 00:51:45,545 This advance is not enough. 1151 00:51:46,055 --> 00:51:49,265 What would it take then, in a sense to have a kind of 1152 00:51:49,825 --> 00:51:52,745 partisan of forms in our society? 1153 00:51:52,845 --> 00:51:54,345 And that's what I wanna suggest is the kind 1154 00:51:54,345 --> 00:51:55,385 of postliberal position. 1155 00:51:55,405 --> 00:51:59,185 If, if I were to define it, would be to think about a part 1156 00:51:59,185 --> 00:52:01,465 of our society, maybe a part of our political order 1157 00:52:01,495 --> 00:52:05,265 that is proform that sees itself 1158 00:52:05,265 --> 00:52:07,985 as having a governing agenda, not just to slow 1159 00:52:08,695 --> 00:52:12,785 what is a kind of inexorable advance, but a proform agenda. 1160 00:52:12,935 --> 00:52:14,025 What would that look like? Well, 1161 00:52:14,385 --> 00:52:17,025 I can't say I'm not a policy Wong, I don't have every answer 1162 00:52:17,025 --> 00:52:19,385 to this, but at least I would like to plant the seed 1163 00:52:19,405 --> 00:52:21,945 for those interested in what that might begin to look like. 1164 00:52:22,605 --> 00:52:26,745 It would look like pro-family policies, not simply 1165 00:52:27,365 --> 00:52:28,425 you can work out of the house. 1166 00:52:28,455 --> 00:52:30,145 What would it, what would make it possible 1167 00:52:30,145 --> 00:52:31,865 for parents at least one parent 1168 00:52:32,325 --> 00:52:34,545 to be at home if they wanna raise their kid 1169 00:52:34,605 --> 00:52:36,905 or both parents part-time to be at home? 1170 00:52:36,985 --> 00:52:39,825 And of course, increasingly this is pos made possible to us 1171 00:52:39,925 --> 00:52:42,865 by working at a distance, but that not everyone can do that. 1172 00:52:43,325 --> 00:52:44,945 That's a kind of an upper class luxury. 1173 00:52:45,885 --> 00:52:47,065 You know, there are a lot of people 1174 00:52:47,065 --> 00:52:48,385 who are working two jobs, really, 1175 00:52:48,385 --> 00:52:50,105 because they have to work in two service jobs. 1176 00:52:50,765 --> 00:52:52,905 And what if we can make it possible for one 1177 00:52:52,905 --> 00:52:54,705 or both of those parents at least to spend part 1178 00:52:54,705 --> 00:52:58,145 of the day at home to raise their kids rather than pay them 1179 00:52:58,245 --> 00:52:59,705 to pay somebody else to take care of the kids. 1180 00:52:59,845 --> 00:53:01,065 I'm not saying you force them to do 1181 00:53:01,065 --> 00:53:02,465 it, but make it possible. 1182 00:53:02,845 --> 00:53:05,825 So a pro-family policy would think about what would, 1183 00:53:05,825 --> 00:53:08,865 what would make it possible for us to strengthen families, 1184 00:53:09,035 --> 00:53:11,825 especially at a time when so much of the force 1185 00:53:12,085 --> 00:53:15,825 and power of our society militates against family formation. 1186 00:53:17,805 --> 00:53:19,625 I'm gonna say something very, you know, kind of 1187 00:53:20,145 --> 00:53:21,265 edgy and unpopular here. 1188 00:53:21,625 --> 00:53:24,105 Probably. I was recently in the, what was described 1189 00:53:24,105 --> 00:53:26,965 by Mic Michael Beschloss of the dictatorship of Hungary, 1190 00:53:27,145 --> 00:53:29,325 the dictator of Victor Orban. 1191 00:53:29,665 --> 00:53:32,605 In order to learn a bit more about the pro-family policies 1192 00:53:32,605 --> 00:53:34,085 of Hungary, well, here's what the dictator 1193 00:53:34,385 --> 00:53:38,005 or Orban has been doing, uh, in, in Hungary. 1194 00:53:38,715 --> 00:53:40,485 When you arrive at the airport in Hungary 1195 00:53:40,485 --> 00:53:42,885 and Budapest, you're con, you're confronted immediately, not 1196 00:53:42,885 --> 00:53:45,605 with like signs that tell you how you can apply for a visa 1197 00:53:45,785 --> 00:53:49,365 or an Amex card or you know, rental car. 1198 00:53:49,505 --> 00:53:51,845 You're confronted with these signs that show very happy 1199 00:53:52,415 --> 00:53:53,805 young families with kids. 1200 00:53:53,825 --> 00:53:54,965 And it says, welcome to hungry, 1201 00:53:55,395 --> 00:53:56,925 welcome to Pro-Family Hungry. 1202 00:53:56,945 --> 00:53:58,485 That's the first thing you see when you get off the plane. 1203 00:53:58,485 --> 00:54:00,445 Welcome to pro, pro-family hungry. 1204 00:54:00,445 --> 00:54:02,085 Imagine if you got off a plane in Chicago. 1205 00:54:02,085 --> 00:54:04,885 Welcome to Pro-family Chicago. That'd be kind of nice. 1206 00:54:04,905 --> 00:54:07,765 That's a little thing. If you buy a minivan 1207 00:54:09,865 --> 00:54:12,085 in Hungary, you get a tax subsidy. 1208 00:54:13,235 --> 00:54:14,445 They want you to have a minivan. 1209 00:54:14,905 --> 00:54:15,965 You don't have to have a minivan, 1210 00:54:15,965 --> 00:54:16,885 but they want you to have, if you need a 1211 00:54:16,885 --> 00:54:18,005 minivan, they want you to have a minivan. 1212 00:54:18,945 --> 00:54:23,165 If you get married in Hungary, you can take out a loan 1213 00:54:23,225 --> 00:54:25,485 of roughly the equivalent of $50,000. 1214 00:54:26,745 --> 00:54:29,405 And if you have one child, a third of that gets forgiven. 1215 00:54:30,065 --> 00:54:31,525 And if you have two children, two 1216 00:54:31,525 --> 00:54:32,685 thirds of that gets forgiven. 1217 00:54:32,825 --> 00:54:34,605 If you have three children, it's all gets forgiven. 1218 00:54:34,705 --> 00:54:36,325 So you can buy a house and fill it with three kids. 1219 00:54:36,745 --> 00:54:39,445 You don't have to, nobody's holding a gun to your head. 1220 00:54:40,105 --> 00:54:42,005 That's, that's what a dictator does. 1221 00:54:42,665 --> 00:54:45,165 You can do it if you want to, you can pay back the loan 1222 00:54:45,185 --> 00:54:47,485 and have no kids buy the house 1223 00:54:47,505 --> 00:54:49,205 and pay it back over the course of a lifetime. 1224 00:54:49,205 --> 00:54:50,605 But if you're gonna have kids anyway, you may 1225 00:54:50,605 --> 00:54:52,485 as well take the loan out, get it forgiven, 1226 00:54:52,485 --> 00:54:54,685 have free down payment for a house, right? 1227 00:54:54,685 --> 00:54:57,365 That's being paid for with tax dollars, something 1228 00:54:57,365 --> 00:54:59,845 that republicans or conservatives hate to do, 1229 00:55:00,785 --> 00:55:02,365 but they view it as something deeply 1230 00:55:02,505 --> 00:55:04,285 and vitally important to their civilization. 1231 00:55:05,335 --> 00:55:06,925 After you have a fourth child, 1232 00:55:07,145 --> 00:55:08,565 you no longer have to pay income taxes. 1233 00:55:09,865 --> 00:55:12,045 We stopped at three, but I think if, if there was that, 1234 00:55:12,085 --> 00:55:13,485 I, I'd be down with that. 1235 00:55:15,195 --> 00:55:17,565 Okay? Lots of ways in which one could begin 1236 00:55:17,565 --> 00:55:19,525 to think imaginatively about what could we do. 1237 00:55:19,525 --> 00:55:21,205 It's not to say you have to form a family. 1238 00:55:21,595 --> 00:55:23,045 It's not to say you have to have children, 1239 00:55:24,145 --> 00:55:26,565 but if we want to inculcate, I think especially those of you 1240 00:55:26,565 --> 00:55:27,845 who are parents in this room, 1241 00:55:28,065 --> 00:55:29,125 and I speak for myself, 1242 00:55:29,195 --> 00:55:32,645 certainly if you wanna inculcate a sense of gratitude 1243 00:55:33,345 --> 00:55:36,405 and a sense of obligation to the next generation, 1244 00:55:36,655 --> 00:55:40,085 there is no fundamentally more important thing to do than 1245 00:55:40,085 --> 00:55:41,285 to encourage people to have children. 1246 00:55:42,045 --> 00:55:44,725 I certainly didn't have, I had no idea what my parents did 1247 00:55:45,825 --> 00:55:47,405 to raise, you know, once they had me. 1248 00:55:48,505 --> 00:55:50,325 You have no idea what your parents do 1249 00:55:50,325 --> 00:55:51,405 until you have your own child 1250 00:55:51,405 --> 00:55:53,245 and then you're like, thinking 24 hours a day. 1251 00:55:53,525 --> 00:55:55,005 I can't believe they did this. I 1252 00:55:55,005 --> 00:55:56,045 cannot believe they did this. 1253 00:55:56,745 --> 00:55:59,845 And then I was like, I always thought I was a good son 1254 00:55:59,845 --> 00:56:02,405 and grateful, but I became deeply grateful, 1255 00:56:02,965 --> 00:56:05,325 profoundly grateful that my parents did for us, 1256 00:56:05,395 --> 00:56:07,405 what we were called on to do for our children. 1257 00:56:07,905 --> 00:56:10,325 And I think that ethos is something our 1258 00:56:10,325 --> 00:56:11,805 civilization desperately needs. 1259 00:56:12,595 --> 00:56:16,965 That kind of capacity of, of gratitude for 1260 00:56:16,965 --> 00:56:19,715 what we have been given community. 1261 00:56:20,205 --> 00:56:24,685 Think a variety of pro local policies would be essential. 1262 00:56:26,285 --> 00:56:29,245 I think first of all, we need to, uh, we need to think hard 1263 00:56:29,265 --> 00:56:33,365 as a society about how we strengthen local businesses, 1264 00:56:34,585 --> 00:56:36,685 how we strengthen family owned businesses. 1265 00:56:37,195 --> 00:56:40,005 It's certainly vis-a-vis the chain stores in the town I 1266 00:56:40,005 --> 00:56:41,085 grew up in, in Windsor, Connecticut. 1267 00:56:41,095 --> 00:56:44,325 Every store that we went to, with very few exceptions, 1268 00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:46,725 were all owned by families in the town that I grew up in. 1269 00:56:46,745 --> 00:56:49,925 And they were the backbone of our society, of our town. 1270 00:56:50,395 --> 00:56:51,805 They did all the volunteering, 1271 00:56:51,835 --> 00:56:53,645 they sponsored the little league teams. 1272 00:56:54,195 --> 00:56:56,045 They did. I mean, they just did tremendous amount 1273 00:56:56,045 --> 00:56:57,325 of work in our community. 1274 00:56:57,425 --> 00:57:00,765 And they're all gone. They've all moved out. 1275 00:57:00,765 --> 00:57:03,365 They all live in the suburbs and it's now CVS 1276 00:57:03,505 --> 00:57:05,565 and, you know, every, every chain imaginable. 1277 00:57:05,585 --> 00:57:07,605 And the downtown is really not a downtown anymore 1278 00:57:07,605 --> 00:57:09,685 because it's the chain stores out near the interstate. 1279 00:57:10,665 --> 00:57:13,485 So it's not just that cheaper products are cheaper products. 1280 00:57:13,485 --> 00:57:14,685 They damage a community in a way 1281 00:57:14,685 --> 00:57:15,845 that's often invisible to us. 1282 00:57:16,385 --> 00:57:20,245 So as a community, we should be thinking much more about 1283 00:57:20,305 --> 00:57:23,085 how we encourage the kinds of trusteeship 1284 00:57:23,145 --> 00:57:25,885 and stewardship that I think small business owners, 1285 00:57:25,935 --> 00:57:27,965 small store owners who have an in, 1286 00:57:27,965 --> 00:57:29,645 who have an investment in their communities. 1287 00:57:29,785 --> 00:57:31,725 And I think this would be attractive then to the kinds 1288 00:57:31,725 --> 00:57:33,325 of students that I've taught at three universities, 1289 00:57:34,435 --> 00:57:36,885 Princeton, Georgetown, and Notre Dame. 1290 00:57:37,065 --> 00:57:39,445 All of them top 15 schools in this country. 1291 00:57:40,025 --> 00:57:42,125 And all, all of, or I shouldn't say all of them, 1292 00:57:42,125 --> 00:57:43,685 but most students of whom have no desire 1293 00:57:43,685 --> 00:57:44,805 to go back to their hometowns. 1294 00:57:44,925 --> 00:57:46,885 'cause there's nothing there. They all wanna move 1295 00:57:46,885 --> 00:57:48,645 to New York or Chicago or la. 1296 00:57:49,385 --> 00:57:51,565 And this is, this is a great tragedy for our country 1297 00:57:51,565 --> 00:57:54,205 to have our most talented young people all being sucked out 1298 00:57:54,205 --> 00:57:56,805 of their local communities never to return 1299 00:57:56,805 --> 00:57:57,965 because there's nothing there. 1300 00:57:58,865 --> 00:58:02,925 So how do we, how do we retain and attract the best 1301 00:58:02,925 --> 00:58:04,845 and the brightest into our local communities 1302 00:58:04,845 --> 00:58:07,485 where they can become the kinds of people, well, 1303 00:58:07,485 --> 00:58:08,645 like your governor, like, uh, 1304 00:58:08,755 --> 00:58:10,765 like Governor Askew was for this, this community. 1305 00:58:12,325 --> 00:58:14,965 I think too, we need to think about conservatives at least 1306 00:58:14,965 --> 00:58:16,045 claim to care about beauty. 1307 00:58:16,435 --> 00:58:19,965 Well, here's some beauty, which, 1308 00:58:20,135 --> 00:58:22,005 which city do you think is in the country 1309 00:58:22,005 --> 00:58:23,165 that won World War ii? 1310 00:58:25,615 --> 00:58:26,945 They're the same size city. 1311 00:58:27,045 --> 00:58:28,745 That's Aen Germany to the left, 1312 00:58:29,365 --> 00:58:31,145 that's South Bend, Indiana to the right. 1313 00:58:32,355 --> 00:58:34,895 That's my, that's the town I live in on the right. 1314 00:58:35,105 --> 00:58:36,935 These are both taken in 2020. 1315 00:58:37,545 --> 00:58:39,415 These pictures, these are both from 2020. 1316 00:58:40,075 --> 00:58:43,015 Here's kin, 1945 and 2020. 1317 00:58:43,795 --> 00:58:45,655 Now you can tell which country lost World War ii, 1318 00:58:46,195 --> 00:58:47,695 but you wouldn't know it from today's picture. 1319 00:58:47,965 --> 00:58:49,695 Here was South Bend in 1945 1320 00:58:50,355 --> 00:58:52,015 on the left, and there it is today. 1321 00:58:52,875 --> 00:58:55,855 How, how could any country calling itself a civilization 1322 00:58:57,005 --> 00:58:58,545 endure this, bear this do this. 1323 00:58:59,045 --> 00:59:01,945 How could Germany do this? And we let this happen. 1324 00:59:03,405 --> 00:59:06,425 It just seems to me, um, just incomprehensible 1325 00:59:06,425 --> 00:59:08,505 that a society calling itself one 1326 00:59:08,505 --> 00:59:09,625 of the greatest countries in the world, 1327 00:59:09,685 --> 00:59:10,745 let something like this happen. 1328 00:59:11,285 --> 00:59:13,185 Here's a picture from exactly the same 1329 00:59:13,185 --> 00:59:14,345 vantage of Dresden, Germany. 1330 00:59:14,345 --> 00:59:16,985 Those of you know, Dresden firebombed toward the end 1331 00:59:16,985 --> 00:59:19,505 of World War ii, Kurt Vonnegut was in a slaughterhouse, 1332 00:59:19,665 --> 00:59:21,165 slaughterhouse five was able 1333 00:59:21,165 --> 00:59:23,445 to survive the firebombing Dresden, almost no, 1334 00:59:23,465 --> 00:59:26,285 no building left standing at least whole, just empty shells. 1335 00:59:26,745 --> 00:59:28,605 And that's today from the same vantage. 1336 00:59:29,185 --> 00:59:30,205 And here's the same picture, 1337 00:59:30,665 --> 00:59:33,365 or I should say roughly the same vantage of Detroit, 1338 00:59:33,605 --> 00:59:36,045 Michigan in 1945 and Detroit, Michigan today. 1339 00:59:36,045 --> 00:59:39,125 Which one looks like it was carpet bombed 40 years ago? 1340 00:59:39,915 --> 00:59:40,965 Just an amazing thing. 1341 00:59:41,025 --> 00:59:44,805 So a kind of a willingness to invest in our public spaces. 1342 00:59:45,635 --> 00:59:49,405 This was, this was in part, this renovation 1343 00:59:49,465 --> 00:59:52,125 of kin was due in part to the Marshall Plan. 1344 00:59:52,585 --> 00:59:54,845 We were willing to do that for defeated Germany. 1345 00:59:54,865 --> 00:59:56,725 Why aren't we willing to do this for defeated America? 1346 00:59:58,145 --> 00:59:59,395 It's just an amazing thing. 1347 01:00:03,315 --> 01:00:07,135 The nation seems to me that, uh, well, 1348 01:00:07,135 --> 01:00:10,455 here I think it's interesting to see movement, uh, on, 1349 01:00:10,455 --> 01:00:12,375 especially on the Republican side, 1350 01:00:12,375 --> 01:00:13,495 but not only the Republican side. 1351 01:00:13,495 --> 01:00:14,855 I think Joe Biden's been good on this front 1352 01:00:15,395 --> 01:00:18,015 toward increasingly thinking about what a pro national 1353 01:00:18,575 --> 01:00:19,815 economic policy would look like. 1354 01:00:19,915 --> 01:00:22,655 And here in particular, attempting to sort 1355 01:00:22,655 --> 01:00:25,095 of reshore manufacturing, thinking about, 1356 01:00:25,095 --> 01:00:27,695 especially in the wake of COI, essential industries 1357 01:00:27,695 --> 01:00:30,055 that we need to have on our shores, pharmaceuticals, 1358 01:00:30,055 --> 01:00:31,575 steel manufacturing, and so forth. 1359 01:00:31,895 --> 01:00:33,775 I think there's actually beginning to be a little bit 1360 01:00:33,915 --> 01:00:37,735 of a consensus between the parties, uh, training, research, 1361 01:00:37,735 --> 01:00:40,175 investment in, in, uh, in ways 1362 01:00:40,175 --> 01:00:42,535 that were undertaken in this country for a long time. 1363 01:00:43,375 --> 01:00:46,055 I think moving away from this kind of knee jerk sort 1364 01:00:46,055 --> 01:00:49,695 of anti, you know, that any kind of effort 1365 01:00:49,795 --> 01:00:50,815 to build a national, 1366 01:00:51,055 --> 01:00:53,935 a great national economic policy is contrary to free market, 1367 01:00:54,115 --> 01:00:58,055 uh, ethos, uh, is, uh, uh, increasingly, um, 1368 01:00:58,615 --> 01:01:00,015 increasingly, uh, um, 1369 01:01:00,425 --> 01:01:03,055 being rejected in really important circles in our country. 1370 01:01:03,515 --> 01:01:06,255 And I think here, a kind of positive policy, again, a pro 1371 01:01:07,095 --> 01:01:11,335 national policy, uh, is, um, economic policy is called upon. 1372 01:01:11,715 --> 01:01:12,815 And secondly, a position 1373 01:01:12,815 --> 01:01:13,855 that I don't think is popular 1374 01:01:13,915 --> 01:01:15,095 in any of the political parties. 1375 01:01:15,275 --> 01:01:17,335 But, um, the call for a kind of public service 1376 01:01:19,045 --> 01:01:22,825 your governor ask You served in the military, in the Army 1377 01:01:22,885 --> 01:01:25,305 for several years in Korea, in the Korean War. 1378 01:01:26,285 --> 01:01:29,185 It was a considered a rite of passage, especially 1379 01:01:29,185 --> 01:01:31,185 for people in the ruling class to serve their country 1380 01:01:31,205 --> 01:01:32,345 for some period of time. 1381 01:01:32,735 --> 01:01:35,185 Alright? As I mentioned, I taught at Princeton University, 1382 01:01:35,445 --> 01:01:37,825 and every dormitory window at Princeton University 1383 01:01:37,825 --> 01:01:39,025 has a star outside of it. 1384 01:01:39,175 --> 01:01:41,025 Some have had several stars outside of it. 1385 01:01:41,165 --> 01:01:44,305 And those were for people who fell in one of the wars 1386 01:01:44,305 --> 01:01:46,265 that America fought in who lived in those dormitories. 1387 01:01:47,045 --> 01:01:48,665 If you were to do that with today's students, 1388 01:01:48,665 --> 01:01:50,465 you have almost no star in any window 1389 01:01:50,895 --> 01:01:53,305 because very few of our elite students serve, 1390 01:01:54,155 --> 01:01:57,345 serve our nation in any form, certainly not in the military. 1391 01:01:58,025 --> 01:02:00,425 I thought it was a really wonderful moment when Charles 1392 01:02:00,535 --> 01:02:04,905 wrangle Congressman from, uh, New York City in 2015, 1393 01:02:04,925 --> 01:02:09,535 in the approach in the lead up of the, uh, war in Iraq, uh, 1394 01:02:09,535 --> 01:02:11,015 said, well, if we're gonna go to war in Iraq, 1395 01:02:11,015 --> 01:02:12,655 we should have, we should institute a draft. 1396 01:02:14,005 --> 01:02:16,775 It's a really amazing moment. He had served in the military. 1397 01:02:16,775 --> 01:02:17,775 He said, we should institute a draft. 1398 01:02:17,775 --> 01:02:19,500 And why did he do that? He was opposed to the war. 1399 01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:20,860 And he didn't wanna say he was opposed to the war. 1400 01:02:20,860 --> 01:02:22,165 It wasn't a popular position at the time. 1401 01:02:22,165 --> 01:02:24,965 We might all forget, but he said, I, we should have a draft. 1402 01:02:24,965 --> 01:02:27,525 Because he knew the day you institute a draft, all, 1403 01:02:27,625 --> 01:02:29,285 all support for that war would go away. 1404 01:02:29,665 --> 01:02:31,925 It was a way to sort of say that if we had a draft, 1405 01:02:31,985 --> 01:02:33,765 we would be much more selective about the wars. 1406 01:02:33,765 --> 01:02:35,765 We would go into, you know, a lot 1407 01:02:35,765 --> 01:02:37,285 of people would be much more interested 1408 01:02:37,285 --> 01:02:38,525 in whether or not we were gonna war. 1409 01:02:38,525 --> 01:02:40,005 When you're have an all, you know, sort 1410 01:02:40,005 --> 01:02:41,525 of professional army, you can do a lot 1411 01:02:41,525 --> 01:02:44,405 of things without army, without a lot of people noticing. 1412 01:02:45,025 --> 01:02:47,085 Uh, and this was a concern of our founding fathers. 1413 01:02:47,085 --> 01:02:48,405 This was a, this is actually the basis 1414 01:02:48,465 --> 01:02:51,485 of the Second Amendment, much forgotten in our time, uh, 1415 01:02:51,485 --> 01:02:54,125 that, that the hope was that you'd have a citizen army 1416 01:02:54,705 --> 01:02:58,405 and by having a citizen army, you would not engage in sort 1417 01:02:58,405 --> 01:03:01,965 of frequent and, and spurious wars, uh, simply 1418 01:03:02,155 --> 01:03:04,805 because the ruling class wanted to engage in them. 1419 01:03:06,505 --> 01:03:08,165 Lastly, and maybe most controversially, 1420 01:03:09,455 --> 01:03:11,975 I think rather than calling for religious liberty, 1421 01:03:12,175 --> 01:03:14,455 I would actually say that in some ways we need to return 1422 01:03:14,555 --> 01:03:16,295 to a form of public Christianity. 1423 01:03:16,355 --> 01:03:18,695 And I realize and recognize we're a, we're a society 1424 01:03:18,695 --> 01:03:20,255 that's increasingly less Christian. 1425 01:03:20,595 --> 01:03:22,815 But I think that's in part because we've ceased to be a kind 1426 01:03:22,815 --> 01:03:24,815 of society that's willing to engage in forms 1427 01:03:24,835 --> 01:03:25,895 of public Christianity. 1428 01:03:26,995 --> 01:03:28,895 By public Christianity, I don't mean in established 1429 01:03:29,055 --> 01:03:32,415 religion, I don't mean, uh, you know, kind of the way, 1430 01:03:32,415 --> 01:03:34,055 the way it was at the time of the colonies 1431 01:03:34,055 --> 01:03:35,695 where the states had their own individual 1432 01:03:35,825 --> 01:03:37,135 state established religions. 1433 01:03:37,135 --> 01:03:38,135 Though, if we want to go back and 1434 01:03:38,135 --> 01:03:39,375 revisit that, it would be interesting. 1435 01:03:39,455 --> 01:03:41,455 I mean, you know, have effective established religion 1436 01:03:41,455 --> 01:03:44,495 of Mormonism in Utah, and the republic hasn't fallen. 1437 01:03:44,595 --> 01:03:47,975 It might be interesting to return to that possibility. 1438 01:03:47,975 --> 01:03:49,535 People can move and find the states 1439 01:03:49,535 --> 01:03:50,695 that they might wanna live in. 1440 01:03:50,795 --> 01:03:54,695 But short of that, we have, we have a tradition 1441 01:03:54,695 --> 01:03:55,815 of a public recognition. 1442 01:03:55,935 --> 01:03:57,775 I mean, we, we actually still have it yest, uh, 1443 01:03:57,775 --> 01:04:00,095 not yesterday, Friday, the stock market was closed. 1444 01:04:00,115 --> 01:04:01,655 The bond market was closed. And why? 1445 01:04:01,685 --> 01:04:05,775 Well, it was good Friday. Did the, did the country fall? No. 1446 01:04:05,915 --> 01:04:09,095 No. Was there oppression on the streets? No. No. 1447 01:04:09,235 --> 01:04:10,615 Not, not as far as I could tell. 1448 01:04:11,595 --> 01:04:12,695 It was a recognition that 1449 01:04:12,695 --> 01:04:14,455 that was a sacred day for many people. 1450 01:04:15,595 --> 01:04:17,615 And the, the markets were closed on that day. 1451 01:04:17,955 --> 01:04:19,375 It was traditionally the case that 1452 01:04:20,415 --> 01:04:21,735 businesses were closed on Sundays. 1453 01:04:22,325 --> 01:04:25,175 That was the Sabbath. And it's interesting that, uh, 1454 01:04:25,175 --> 01:04:26,375 that in recent years, 1455 01:04:26,675 --> 01:04:30,745 Poland has instituted a sabbath, a Sabbath law. 1456 01:04:31,125 --> 01:04:32,585 It didn't exist until recently. 1457 01:04:33,005 --> 01:04:35,825 And the reason they said we're gonna have a Sabbath law was 1458 01:04:35,825 --> 01:04:39,925 after World War ii, the Soviet Union, which 1459 01:04:39,925 --> 01:04:42,845 of course was ruling Poland, they got rid of the Sabbath. 1460 01:04:43,075 --> 01:04:45,405 They said, people should be working every day of the week. 1461 01:04:45,785 --> 01:04:47,965 That's what it is to be a communist. You're a worker. 1462 01:04:49,185 --> 01:04:50,885 And then after many years they said, we need, 1463 01:04:50,885 --> 01:04:52,325 we should reestablish the Sabbath. 1464 01:04:52,905 --> 01:04:55,325 All businesses except essential businesses will be closed. 1465 01:04:55,745 --> 01:04:57,725 And the reason they justified it was not necessarily 1466 01:04:57,725 --> 01:04:58,485 because they thought or 1467 01:04:58,685 --> 01:04:59,645 expected everyone would go to church. 1468 01:04:59,895 --> 01:05:01,685 There should be a day of no commerce. 1469 01:05:02,415 --> 01:05:04,565 There should be a day when families can be at home. 1470 01:05:04,975 --> 01:05:07,245 There should be a day when you can spend the day 1471 01:05:07,245 --> 01:05:09,165 as you wish without having to work, without having 1472 01:05:09,185 --> 01:05:11,325 to be at somebody else's command. 1473 01:05:12,145 --> 01:05:15,725 To, to work, uh, to, to, to, to be at leisure, to go to, 1474 01:05:15,825 --> 01:05:17,845 to go to church, or go to service if you want. 1475 01:05:19,025 --> 01:05:23,125 Uh, and simply not to be engaged in commerce would be a kind 1476 01:05:23,125 --> 01:05:27,725 of one way, uh, one remarkable way to kind of have a form 1477 01:05:27,725 --> 01:05:29,645 of, not, not a new, 1478 01:05:29,645 --> 01:05:30,845 but a really revival of a form 1479 01:05:30,845 --> 01:05:32,245 of a kind of public Christianity. 1480 01:05:33,365 --> 01:05:36,205 I think a a a deeper way in which this would take place 1481 01:05:36,225 --> 01:05:38,805 as a kind of reinvigoration of what was known as the kind 1482 01:05:38,805 --> 01:05:40,245 of Christian democratic tradition. 1483 01:05:40,245 --> 01:05:42,925 This is the European tradition of Christian democracy, 1484 01:05:42,975 --> 01:05:45,365 which is still the name of many political parties in Europe, 1485 01:05:45,735 --> 01:05:48,285 often in the kind of center right of the political scale, 1486 01:05:48,345 --> 01:05:51,125 the CDU in Germany, Christian Democratic Union in Germany. 1487 01:05:51,785 --> 01:05:54,245 And it's, it's really just a kind of recognition 1488 01:05:54,945 --> 01:05:56,965 of a certain way of thinking about politics 1489 01:05:57,355 --> 01:05:58,445 when you are a Christian. 1490 01:05:58,905 --> 01:06:01,365 And the way in which you think about politics is as someone 1491 01:06:01,425 --> 01:06:05,205 who is created, who has a kind of duty to a kind of piety 1492 01:06:05,305 --> 01:06:06,405 and a kind of gratitude 1493 01:06:06,405 --> 01:06:09,445 and a recognition that you are not in command, in a way 1494 01:06:10,305 --> 01:06:13,085 it regards the markets as not sacrosanct. 1495 01:06:13,585 --> 01:06:15,045 The markets are simply a tool 1496 01:06:15,045 --> 01:06:16,245 and they need to be restrained. 1497 01:06:16,785 --> 01:06:18,485 It celebrates marriage and family 1498 01:06:18,865 --> 01:06:21,965 and allows people time to attend their religious services 1499 01:06:22,025 --> 01:06:23,445 or to take care of their families. 1500 01:06:23,945 --> 01:06:26,165 And why do I call for a public Christianity at a time when 1501 01:06:26,165 --> 01:06:27,565 this is probably one of the most unpopular ideas, 1502 01:06:27,565 --> 01:06:29,445 even probably more unpopular than the idea 1503 01:06:29,445 --> 01:06:31,125 of public national public service? 1504 01:06:31,595 --> 01:06:33,125 Well, it's in part because of 1505 01:06:33,125 --> 01:06:34,405 something I read on Good Friday. 1506 01:06:35,025 --> 01:06:39,605 On Good Friday in a British paper, oops, sorry, over this 1507 01:06:40,115 --> 01:06:43,885 back, Yeah. 1508 01:06:45,185 --> 01:06:48,765 Uh, in, on Friday the 29th in the times, uh, of London, 1509 01:06:49,195 --> 01:06:51,245 this article appeared, which is 1510 01:06:51,245 --> 01:06:53,485 that we can't afford a taboo on assisted dying. 1511 01:06:55,145 --> 01:06:56,325 The argument against it is 1512 01:06:56,325 --> 01:06:58,605 that pressure will grow on the termin terminally ill 1513 01:06:58,605 --> 01:06:59,765 to hasten their own deaths. 1514 01:07:00,105 --> 01:07:01,125 And that's a bad thing. 1515 01:07:02,025 --> 01:07:03,285 We need to lift the taboo 1516 01:07:04,115 --> 01:07:07,445 that some lives are simply no longer worth living. 1517 01:07:07,865 --> 01:07:09,925 And that if you have reached a certain age 1518 01:07:10,025 --> 01:07:12,685 and you're no longer able to kind of get around easily, 1519 01:07:13,105 --> 01:07:15,205 and you start to be a burden on other, on other people, 1520 01:07:15,905 --> 01:07:19,245 you should feel the social pressure to end your life. 1521 01:07:20,025 --> 01:07:24,245 You should feel the kind of social sanction 1522 01:07:25,055 --> 01:07:27,545 that you are, the Tigan laben, 1523 01:07:28,655 --> 01:07:31,265 what the Nazis called the Jews an unworthy life. 1524 01:07:31,855 --> 01:07:32,945 Your life should end 1525 01:07:33,335 --> 01:07:37,555 because you are no longer a fully a human being. 1526 01:07:39,105 --> 01:07:43,235 This was the view of the entire world until the advent 1527 01:07:43,235 --> 01:07:45,675 of Christianity, this great book by Tom Holland, 1528 01:07:45,855 --> 01:07:47,595 not the actor and Spider-Man, let me tell you. 1529 01:07:48,375 --> 01:07:49,995 Uh, but the historian, if those of you know 1530 01:07:49,995 --> 01:07:52,635 that the podcast, the rest is history, a great podcast. 1531 01:07:53,215 --> 01:07:55,035 Tom Holland is one of those podcasters. 1532 01:07:55,655 --> 01:07:58,195 Uh, and he wrote this book, he himself is not, 1533 01:07:58,215 --> 01:08:01,635 or was not a Christian, but he's a, he's a scholar of Rome 1534 01:08:01,695 --> 01:08:02,715 and Roman history. 1535 01:08:03,095 --> 01:08:04,875 And one of the things that struck him over 1536 01:08:04,875 --> 01:08:06,515 and over again is how is it 1537 01:08:06,515 --> 01:08:08,675 that we went from being such a cruel society 1538 01:08:09,655 --> 01:08:12,395 in the Roman Empire, in the days of Rome, 1539 01:08:12,415 --> 01:08:15,235 in the pagan world, a society that wantonly 1540 01:08:15,625 --> 01:08:18,365 and indiscriminately simply kill people who were deemed 1541 01:08:18,365 --> 01:08:22,405 to be unworthy, just treated human life 1542 01:08:22,665 --> 01:08:25,125 as if it were just digging up a root 1543 01:08:26,345 --> 01:08:28,975 discarding old newspaper. 1544 01:08:29,395 --> 01:08:30,975 How do we go from that kind of society 1545 01:08:30,975 --> 01:08:32,615 to one in which we talk about the inherent dignity 1546 01:08:32,675 --> 01:08:33,775 of every human life? 1547 01:08:34,355 --> 01:08:37,455 And this entire book is about what changed, how a kind 1548 01:08:37,455 --> 01:08:38,655 of see change took place. 1549 01:08:39,355 --> 01:08:42,255 And I think what we're seeing today is a kind of reversion 1550 01:08:42,435 --> 01:08:45,655 to that world, not literally where we're having, you know, 1551 01:08:45,745 --> 01:08:47,055 Roman centurions going 1552 01:08:47,055 --> 01:08:49,335 around necessarily crucifying every anyone they wanted to. 1553 01:08:50,195 --> 01:08:53,055 But increasingly the sort of sanitized equivalent of that, 1554 01:08:53,385 --> 01:08:55,735 which is that if your life is deemed not to be worthy, 1555 01:08:56,635 --> 01:08:58,895 you've reached a certain age, you have to use a cane, 1556 01:09:00,275 --> 01:09:01,895 you're feeble, you need help. 1557 01:09:02,565 --> 01:09:04,295 Well, you should feel the social pressure 1558 01:09:04,445 --> 01:09:05,535 that you should end your life, 1559 01:09:05,715 --> 01:09:07,655 and we will devise ways to assist you in doing that. 1560 01:09:08,515 --> 01:09:10,175 So I think if you think 1561 01:09:10,335 --> 01:09:12,895 that public Christianity would be a kind of imposition, 1562 01:09:13,395 --> 01:09:15,655 it would be an imposition of somebody's beliefs over, 1563 01:09:15,655 --> 01:09:17,815 you don't think that in the absence of that, 1564 01:09:17,945 --> 01:09:19,655 there won't be an imposition of beliefs. 1565 01:09:20,095 --> 01:09:21,935 There'll simply be a different set of beliefs, 1566 01:09:22,475 --> 01:09:24,415 and they ought to be ones that you should think hard about. 1567 01:09:24,415 --> 01:09:26,055 Whether those are the ones you want to replace, 1568 01:09:26,795 --> 01:09:28,775 the Christianity that founded this nation, 1569 01:09:28,775 --> 01:09:31,695 and that underlies the idea of democracy 1570 01:09:32,525 --> 01:09:34,695 that Tocqueville said would be so challenging for us. 1571 01:09:35,595 --> 01:09:37,975 So I think without a kind of revival of a certain kind 1572 01:09:37,975 --> 01:09:41,295 of formality in the form of a kind of public Christianity, 1573 01:09:41,705 --> 01:09:44,415 we're likely to see not just the rise of a kind of 1574 01:09:44,955 --> 01:09:47,455 new paganism, but the end of democracy. 1575 01:09:48,355 --> 01:09:50,735 And as Tocqueville said, the irony of democracy is 1576 01:09:50,735 --> 01:09:52,735 that will, it will end in a kind of despotism 1577 01:09:53,115 --> 01:09:55,815 and the despotism that it's likely to end up in is the kind 1578 01:09:55,815 --> 01:09:57,295 of one in which you'll be deemed 1579 01:09:57,355 --> 01:09:58,775 to be no longer worthy of life. 1580 01:09:59,755 --> 01:10:02,695 So I wanna suggest that at least today, uh, that there needs 1581 01:10:02,695 --> 01:10:04,895 to be a kind of a party of the forms. 1582 01:10:05,365 --> 01:10:08,615 It's not a good name, we need a different name, but, 1583 01:10:08,715 --> 01:10:11,135 but, uh, but there needs to be a kind of a way 1584 01:10:11,135 --> 01:10:14,855 of thinking about pressing against the, the hostility 1585 01:10:14,855 --> 01:10:16,575 to forms that Tocqueville identified, 1586 01:10:16,715 --> 01:10:19,055 and that I think are especially, uh, um, 1587 01:10:19,055 --> 01:10:21,895 increasingly a problem, uh, in our society today. 1588 01:10:22,195 --> 01:10:24,095 So thank you for your attention and welcome your questions. 1589 01:10:24,115 --> 01:10:25,115 Thanks very much. 1590 01:10:36,245 --> 01:10:39,455 Okay. So, uh, we have, uh, well, I thought we had, 1591 01:10:39,515 --> 01:10:40,815 do we have the docents in the green 1592 01:10:40,815 --> 01:10:42,095 jackets with microphones? 1593 01:10:42,205 --> 01:10:44,055 Okay. We have a gentleman in a black jacket 1594 01:10:44,395 --> 01:10:46,775 and, uh, who will be carrying a microphone around. 1595 01:10:46,995 --> 01:10:49,655 Yes. And so raise your hand if you'd like to ask a question. 1596 01:10:49,655 --> 01:10:51,535 Please keep your questions short so we can get 1597 01:10:51,535 --> 01:10:52,615 through as many as possible. 1598 01:10:53,235 --> 01:10:56,095 And, um, and, and I do, I I'm worried I'll forget 1599 01:10:56,345 --> 01:10:58,175 after questions are over, we'll have a few, 1600 01:10:58,235 --> 01:10:59,455 uh, thank yous and recognitions. 1601 01:10:59,455 --> 01:11:01,815 But then, uh, professor Zine has agreed to, 1602 01:11:01,875 --> 01:11:03,655 um, sign some books. 1603 01:11:03,685 --> 01:11:06,215 It's his newest book, the table's back here at the back, 1604 01:11:06,275 --> 01:11:08,455 so know that when this is all over, uh, 1605 01:11:08,455 --> 01:11:09,575 there will be a book signing. 1606 01:11:09,765 --> 01:11:11,175 Okay. Getting started. I never agreed 1607 01:11:11,175 --> 01:11:12,175 To that, but okay. Thanks. 1608 01:11:12,175 --> 01:11:16,405 Should I call David or 1609 01:11:17,875 --> 01:11:19,685 He's Got, okay, great. Okay. 1610 01:11:20,585 --> 01:11:23,205 Um, I'm doing a report on Hungary 1611 01:11:23,305 --> 01:11:25,165 for my comparative politics class. 1612 01:11:25,405 --> 01:11:27,525 I was wondering what you thought it was like 1613 01:11:27,525 --> 01:11:28,725 meeting Victor Orbin. 1614 01:11:29,805 --> 01:11:31,285 I didn't meet Victor Orbin this time. 1615 01:11:31,405 --> 01:11:34,845 I was there, um, in 2019, uh, 1616 01:11:34,845 --> 01:11:37,645 when the Hungarian edition of my last book came out. 1617 01:11:37,685 --> 01:11:38,885 I was there for a book event, 1618 01:11:39,105 --> 01:11:42,525 and, uh, as I landed, there was a big limousine that said, 1619 01:11:42,525 --> 01:11:44,285 we'd like you to come and meet the Prime Minister. 1620 01:11:44,305 --> 01:11:45,365 So I was like, well, okay. 1621 01:11:45,965 --> 01:11:49,205 I was like, that's a first, uh, as a political scientist, 1622 01:11:49,405 --> 01:11:50,925 somebody who studies politics, I thought, 1623 01:11:50,925 --> 01:11:52,045 wow, what a great opportunity. 1624 01:11:52,185 --> 01:11:54,005 And little did I know that this would create kind 1625 01:11:54,005 --> 01:11:55,125 of a firestorm in my life, 1626 01:11:55,145 --> 01:11:57,365 and I would be deemed like to have met and, 1627 01:11:57,385 --> 01:11:59,525 and sanctioned the reign of Adolf Hitler. 1628 01:11:59,525 --> 01:12:01,765 So that, that's been my experience of, uh, 1629 01:12:01,865 --> 01:12:03,965 of my post-meeting Victor Orban. 1630 01:12:03,965 --> 01:12:05,485 But meeting him was actually quite fascinating. 1631 01:12:05,755 --> 01:12:07,965 He's a very well-read man. He's very thoughtful. 1632 01:12:08,545 --> 01:12:09,685 Uh, he had read my book 1633 01:12:09,745 --> 01:12:11,485 and we spent about an hour talking about it. 1634 01:12:11,545 --> 01:12:13,965 So that's kind of like any author's dream to sit there 1635 01:12:13,965 --> 01:12:16,125 with a leader of a country and talk about your book. 1636 01:12:16,745 --> 01:12:18,445 Uh, I didn't know much about Hungary at the time, 1637 01:12:18,465 --> 01:12:20,405 and I don't, can't claim to know much about it now. 1638 01:12:20,405 --> 01:12:22,085 But one of the things that I've learned about 1639 01:12:22,085 --> 01:12:26,165 that I really quite admire is their, uh, is their effort to 1640 01:12:26,925 --> 01:12:30,645 shore up family, uh, the formation of families 1641 01:12:30,825 --> 01:12:33,565 and people having children, uh, in the country. 1642 01:12:34,075 --> 01:12:35,605 It's still like every country, 1643 01:12:35,785 --> 01:12:37,565 pretty much every developed country in the world, 1644 01:12:37,635 --> 01:12:41,365 there's still the, um, uh, fertility rate 1645 01:12:41,365 --> 01:12:43,805 or, uh, rate of reproduction is still below replacement. 1646 01:12:43,955 --> 01:12:46,245 This is true in every country in Europe 1647 01:12:46,465 --> 01:12:47,525 and in the United States. 1648 01:12:47,575 --> 01:12:49,645 Today, US is about 1.6. 1649 01:12:50,625 --> 01:12:53,125 The difference is that Hungary is the one country in Europe 1650 01:12:53,125 --> 01:12:54,605 that's actually reversed that trend, 1651 01:12:55,785 --> 01:12:57,125 or among the few countries. 1652 01:12:57,145 --> 01:13:00,605 So it's risen from about 1.4 to 1.7. 1653 01:13:01,185 --> 01:13:03,205 So they're getting a little closer to replacement. 1654 01:13:03,545 --> 01:13:05,365 Uh, but, um, and, 1655 01:13:05,385 --> 01:13:07,965 and notice, you know, this, this, uh, the idea that, uh, 1656 01:13:08,035 --> 01:13:11,085 replacing your populations, it's a controversial idea. 1657 01:13:11,145 --> 01:13:13,325 If you're not replacing your con your population, 1658 01:13:13,325 --> 01:13:15,805 you're either declining, your population is declining, 1659 01:13:15,805 --> 01:13:18,765 that's a popular view among, you know, kind 1660 01:13:18,765 --> 01:13:20,045 of people in the green movement. 1661 01:13:20,465 --> 01:13:21,925 Uh, but it's only popular as long 1662 01:13:21,925 --> 01:13:25,125 as you're not a relatively older person when you kind 1663 01:13:25,125 --> 01:13:26,965 of would like to be able to get social security 1664 01:13:27,185 --> 01:13:29,045 and welfare benefits and so forth. 1665 01:13:29,385 --> 01:13:31,605 If you're not, if you don't have a replacement population, 1666 01:13:32,265 --> 01:13:34,645 uh, the young can't help take care of the old either 1667 01:13:34,745 --> 01:13:37,245 as children or as a kind of social good. 1668 01:13:37,745 --> 01:13:39,805 Uh, so your, your then your decision has 1669 01:13:39,805 --> 01:13:42,605 to increasingly become whether you decline in terms 1670 01:13:42,605 --> 01:13:45,685 of your population or whether you rely upon immigration. 1671 01:13:45,945 --> 01:13:48,525 And that's a decision that most European countries in the 1672 01:13:48,525 --> 01:13:51,085 United States is increasingly made to rely upon immigration 1673 01:13:51,145 --> 01:13:52,765 to replace the population. 1674 01:13:53,345 --> 01:13:54,845 But in places throughout Europe, 1675 01:13:54,915 --> 01:13:56,845 this is creating a massive problem 1676 01:13:57,115 --> 01:13:59,925 because the replacement population is not a European 1677 01:13:59,925 --> 01:14:01,965 population, it's not a Christian population. 1678 01:14:02,195 --> 01:14:03,365 It's a very different culture, 1679 01:14:03,495 --> 01:14:05,845 which is not integrating into the European countries. 1680 01:14:05,845 --> 01:14:07,645 If you're familiar with the situation in France, 1681 01:14:07,745 --> 01:14:10,405 of course you have literal kind of segregation 1682 01:14:10,405 --> 01:14:12,325 that's taken place in the city of Paris. 1683 01:14:13,265 --> 01:14:16,605 And so you have these incredible social tensions 1684 01:14:16,605 --> 01:14:20,005 that are arising, that are at this point, leading 1685 01:14:20,065 --> 01:14:22,045 to some very perilous kinds 1686 01:14:22,045 --> 01:14:24,765 of situations in the European countries, uh, to the point 1687 01:14:24,765 --> 01:14:26,965 where it's very possible that you could see the end 1688 01:14:26,965 --> 01:14:29,005 of liberal democracy in some of these countries 1689 01:14:29,025 --> 01:14:30,805 and the institution of something different. 1690 01:14:31,445 --> 01:14:32,925 I won't go deeply into that, 1691 01:14:32,945 --> 01:14:35,525 but I do think these are the kinds of discussions 1692 01:14:35,525 --> 01:14:36,965 and policies that need to be had 1693 01:14:36,965 --> 01:14:38,845 around issues like family policy 1694 01:14:38,915 --> 01:14:40,805 that just generally people are too uncom, 1695 01:14:40,805 --> 01:14:42,245 people are too uncomfortable to have, 1696 01:14:42,265 --> 01:14:43,685 or it's uncomfortable for people to have. 1697 01:14:44,345 --> 01:14:45,885 Uh, but it seems to me that, um, 1698 01:14:46,675 --> 01:14:48,645 Hungary has made a choice about the 1699 01:14:48,645 --> 01:14:49,845 kind of country it wants to have. 1700 01:14:49,865 --> 01:14:52,045 And as far as I could tell, it was not a dictatorship. 1701 01:14:53,055 --> 01:14:57,765 Thank you. I'm not picking people. Sorry. 1702 01:14:58,085 --> 01:15:01,085 I, I have a, a, a two, two comments Yes, sir. 1703 01:15:01,145 --> 01:15:02,165 As opposed to a question, 1704 01:15:02,225 --> 01:15:04,805 and then you can certainly come back at me on that. 1705 01:15:04,905 --> 01:15:09,085 But, Mm-Hmm. The first one is when you mentioned, uh, 1706 01:15:09,805 --> 01:15:11,445 I guess we'll call it the conservative 1707 01:15:11,945 --> 01:15:15,965 and immigration, I would suggest to you 1708 01:15:16,075 --> 01:15:19,045 that 90, a huge percentage 1709 01:15:19,045 --> 01:15:21,685 of conservatives are not against immigration. 1710 01:15:22,475 --> 01:15:24,925 They are against illegally, yes. Immigration. 1711 01:15:24,925 --> 01:15:27,205 Yes, that's correct. And you did not make that point. Thank 1712 01:15:27,205 --> 01:15:28,205 You for that. Thank you. 1713 01:15:28,205 --> 01:15:28,885 I don't agree. 1714 01:15:28,965 --> 01:15:30,005 I don't disagree with that. Thank you. 1715 01:15:30,345 --> 01:15:34,565 And then another area that wasn't discussed very much, 1716 01:15:34,865 --> 01:15:37,765 if at all, except is, is economics. 1717 01:15:38,505 --> 01:15:42,485 And you mentioned the big box stores wiping out the family 1718 01:15:42,585 --> 01:15:44,525 or the independence, that's a choice. 1719 01:15:44,745 --> 01:15:48,085 Mm-Hmm. We chose to wipe out the family businesses 1720 01:15:48,195 --> 01:15:51,405 because we chose to go to Walmart 1721 01:15:51,905 --> 01:15:54,365 or Sam's or wherever. 1722 01:15:54,505 --> 01:15:58,885 So I, I, I think there's, obviously, you've thrown 1723 01:15:58,985 --> 01:16:01,405 so many marbles on the table, it's very difficult 1724 01:16:01,425 --> 01:16:04,845 to wrap your arms around all of 'em, and probably will slip 1725 01:16:04,845 --> 01:16:06,005 and fall on a lot of 'em. 1726 01:16:06,025 --> 01:16:08,525 But, uh, thank you very much. Thank you. 1727 01:16:08,835 --> 01:16:10,645 Yeah, no, I thank you for that clarification. 1728 01:16:10,725 --> 01:16:14,325 I don't disagree with that. Although I, I do think that, uh, 1729 01:16:14,395 --> 01:16:17,885 there's, um, I I, I, it's not 1730 01:16:17,885 --> 01:16:19,725 so much an anti-immigration, but it is, you're right. 1731 01:16:19,725 --> 01:16:22,165 It's a, uh, it's anti-illegal immigration, 1732 01:16:22,165 --> 01:16:23,365 and it's a controlled immigration. 1733 01:16:23,365 --> 01:16:26,125 And, and I, and I'm, I, I didn't suggest that as a kind 1734 01:16:26,125 --> 01:16:27,485 of critique of that position. 1735 01:16:27,765 --> 01:16:29,245 I simply think it's insufficient, 1736 01:16:29,435 --> 01:16:30,765 it's an insufficient position. 1737 01:16:31,425 --> 01:16:33,645 So that's really the spirit in which I offered that, 1738 01:16:33,785 --> 01:16:35,685 um, uh, that, that comment. 1739 01:16:36,345 --> 01:16:41,285 Um, on, on, on the, on the question of the choice of how we 1740 01:16:42,005 --> 01:16:43,845 organize our economy here, here I will, 1741 01:16:44,365 --> 01:16:45,525 I will push back a bit. 1742 01:16:45,745 --> 01:16:49,205 Um, the, the kind of the, the economic, the theory 1743 01:16:49,205 --> 01:16:52,245 of economics is that e whatever happens in economics is the 1744 01:16:52,245 --> 01:16:54,565 result of the kind of collective decision of the population. 1745 01:16:54,565 --> 01:16:56,645 And as consumers, we make certain choices 1746 01:16:56,905 --> 01:16:59,245 and we go to this place or that place. 1747 01:16:59,345 --> 01:17:00,485 But of course, lying behind 1748 01:17:00,485 --> 01:17:03,965 that were real deep shifts in public policy zoning, 1749 01:17:03,985 --> 01:17:05,885 policy changed, right? 1750 01:17:06,185 --> 01:17:08,645 Um, how we, how we think about our, the space 1751 01:17:08,745 --> 01:17:11,845 and how we organize our space, how we think about the right. 1752 01:17:11,845 --> 01:17:12,965 These, these stores wouldn't do 1753 01:17:12,965 --> 01:17:14,205 as well if we didn't have the kinds 1754 01:17:14,205 --> 01:17:15,925 of supply lines and the offshoring. 1755 01:17:16,185 --> 01:17:18,165 And there again, these were a lot of policy decisions 1756 01:17:18,165 --> 01:17:20,325 that were made about how manufacturing would, 1757 01:17:20,325 --> 01:17:21,445 would take place in this country, 1758 01:17:21,675 --> 01:17:24,125 that we would prize the consumer over the producer. 1759 01:17:24,625 --> 01:17:26,965 We prize the person buying as opposed 1760 01:17:26,965 --> 01:17:28,445 to the person who was working. 1761 01:17:28,815 --> 01:17:31,685 These were decisions that were made, certainly in our 1762 01:17:32,215 --> 01:17:34,045 elite circles, in our state houses 1763 01:17:34,145 --> 01:17:35,325 and in the federal government. 1764 01:17:35,905 --> 01:17:37,365 But I don't think it's fair to say, 1765 01:17:37,425 --> 01:17:38,605 or it's quite accurate to say, 1766 01:17:38,605 --> 01:17:40,405 these were decisions we were making as consumers. 1767 01:17:40,405 --> 01:17:42,205 And we've, we've enjoyed some of the benefits of that. 1768 01:17:42,825 --> 01:17:45,245 But one of the problems is that the costs of 1769 01:17:45,245 --> 01:17:47,085 that have largely, or have been 1770 01:17:47,225 --> 01:17:48,885 to a great extent, invisible to us. 1771 01:17:49,035 --> 01:17:52,005 They became visible, more visible to us during covid, 1772 01:17:53,025 --> 01:17:56,445 but they, they have tended to be relatively invisible to us, 1773 01:17:56,545 --> 01:17:58,925 except as kind of certain kinds of costs 1774 01:17:59,155 --> 01:18:01,325 that we don't associate with those decisions. 1775 01:18:01,705 --> 01:18:03,645 So I think we need to think about economics more 1776 01:18:03,925 --> 01:18:05,165 holistically than simply, oh, 1777 01:18:05,165 --> 01:18:07,245 the consumers marched from this place to this place. 1778 01:18:07,505 --> 01:18:10,685 And see the, again, the, the kinds of policy decisions 1779 01:18:10,685 --> 01:18:12,925 that lie behind that, which themselves reflect a set 1780 01:18:12,925 --> 01:18:15,005 of commitments that, as far as I can tell, 1781 01:18:15,005 --> 01:18:18,085 were never really up for public liberation and debate. 1782 01:18:18,685 --> 01:18:20,605 I, I, I, I don't disagree with you, 1783 01:18:20,745 --> 01:18:23,965 and I certainly would suggest that this is a much, 1784 01:18:23,965 --> 01:18:25,165 much, much broader subject 1785 01:18:25,435 --> 01:18:26,435 Than you could do. 1786 01:18:26,505 --> 01:18:27,525 Agreed. No, I'm done. 1787 01:18:27,525 --> 01:18:30,245 I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm striving to throw out some ideas 1788 01:18:30,345 --> 01:18:31,485 and I'm gonna let smart people 1789 01:18:31,505 --> 01:18:33,045 who might be interested in developing much more 1790 01:18:33,045 --> 01:18:34,765 sophisticated versions 1791 01:18:34,765 --> 01:18:36,565 and policies that I'm, you know, 1792 01:18:36,625 --> 01:18:40,285 I'm just a country political theorist, so thank you though. 1793 01:18:42,825 --> 01:18:46,925 On, on the topic of economics, um, 1794 01:18:48,065 --> 01:18:52,645 you, sorry, I lost my train of thought for a second. 1795 01:18:53,265 --> 01:18:57,405 Um, you spoke a little bit about how, um, 1796 01:18:58,235 --> 01:19:02,325 kind of, okay, 1797 01:19:03,295 --> 01:19:05,525 sorry, I'm a little bit nervous because, okay. 1798 01:19:05,945 --> 01:19:07,805 Uh, I really like your book, but, um, 1799 01:19:08,845 --> 01:19:09,845 Thank you. 1800 01:19:10,305 --> 01:19:13,685 But many of your points against liberalism can also be 1801 01:19:14,005 --> 01:19:16,005 considered points against capitalism. 1802 01:19:16,065 --> 01:19:17,205 Yes. So how can we, 1803 01:19:18,285 --> 01:19:20,565 'cause it seems to me that you think 1804 01:19:20,565 --> 01:19:24,445 that capitalism can also be a part of this like 1805 01:19:24,995 --> 01:19:27,845 postliberal, uh, future that you talk about. 1806 01:19:28,265 --> 01:19:31,925 So how can we divorce capitalism from liberalism, 1807 01:19:32,375 --> 01:19:36,525 especially when capitalism can be seen as a form of 1808 01:19:37,085 --> 01:19:38,325 economic liberalism, 1809 01:19:38,525 --> 01:19:41,365 especially like laissez-faire capitalism? 1810 01:19:41,475 --> 01:19:42,605 Yeah. Thanks so much. 1811 01:19:42,675 --> 01:19:46,325 Well, no, I, I, i, if, if it wasn't clear in, in the talk, 1812 01:19:47,225 --> 01:19:49,685 uh, it's certainly probably clear in my books, um, 1813 01:19:50,145 --> 01:19:53,845 but I, I hope it was at least, um, alluded to in the talk, 1814 01:19:54,065 --> 01:19:56,765 uh, that I'm not a, I'm not a free market guy, 1815 01:19:57,105 --> 01:19:58,885 or at least not an un I shouldn't say that. 1816 01:19:59,385 --> 01:20:01,885 I'm not an unfettered free market doctrinaire. 1817 01:20:02,765 --> 01:20:05,005 I, I believe in private, 1818 01:20:05,685 --> 01:20:07,125 I believe in the existence of private property. 1819 01:20:07,245 --> 01:20:09,845 I believe it's, it's, uh, it's warranted and sanctioned. 1820 01:20:10,325 --> 01:20:13,845 I believe in markets, but also that markets are themselves 1821 01:20:14,665 --> 01:20:16,605 not, should not be seen as autonomous. 1822 01:20:16,605 --> 01:20:18,445 And this is part of my response to this gentleman. 1823 01:20:18,595 --> 01:20:21,685 Markets are a part of the entire political order 1824 01:20:22,425 --> 01:20:24,965 and are appropriately seen as, uh, 1825 01:20:25,425 --> 01:20:28,445 as existing within a broader conception of the common good. 1826 01:20:28,465 --> 01:20:31,365 And therefore, markets need to be understood as tools 1827 01:20:31,795 --> 01:20:33,085 that support the common good. 1828 01:20:33,085 --> 01:20:36,125 And if they don't support the common good, then they need 1829 01:20:36,125 --> 01:20:37,805 to be, in some ways managed 1830 01:20:38,305 --> 01:20:40,805 or organized in ways that are supportive of the common good. 1831 01:20:41,105 --> 01:20:45,365 So, for example, are our markets today supporting, 1832 01:20:46,585 --> 01:20:49,085 um, the ability of young people to be able 1833 01:20:49,085 --> 01:20:50,645 to buy a home and to start a family? 1834 01:20:52,305 --> 01:20:54,765 Our real estate markets certainly aren't, I mean, 1835 01:20:54,885 --> 01:20:57,045 I probably don't have to tell you, right? 1836 01:20:57,045 --> 01:20:59,045 Things are going quite badly in that part of the world. 1837 01:20:59,505 --> 01:21:00,805 And part of the reason for that, 1838 01:21:00,805 --> 01:21:01,885 I'm not saying it's the only reason, 1839 01:21:01,885 --> 01:21:03,205 but part of the reason for that 1840 01:21:03,785 --> 01:21:07,445 is the way in which we are allowing large Wall Street firms 1841 01:21:07,505 --> 01:21:09,765 to buy up, gobble up all kinds of real estate, 1842 01:21:09,765 --> 01:21:11,005 and turn them into investments 1843 01:21:13,465 --> 01:21:16,165 and basically make us into, you know, eternal renters 1844 01:21:16,905 --> 01:21:18,605 and driving up the prices while doing that. 1845 01:21:19,395 --> 01:21:22,405 Does a good society allow the market to do that? 1846 01:21:22,485 --> 01:21:23,565 I would say no, it shouldn't. 1847 01:21:23,915 --> 01:21:25,605 That means a restraint upon the market. 1848 01:21:25,745 --> 01:21:27,805 But that's what a good society will do. 1849 01:21:28,125 --> 01:21:30,765 A society concerned with a common good will consider the 1850 01:21:30,765 --> 01:21:32,445 ways that markets function and work, 1851 01:21:33,265 --> 01:21:35,845 but work not just to generate wealth for some people, 1852 01:21:36,105 --> 01:21:37,765 but generate and support the common good. 1853 01:21:38,025 --> 01:21:39,765 And I think there are whole spheres of life 1854 01:21:39,965 --> 01:21:43,005 where we could say that we can think about the markets in 1855 01:21:43,005 --> 01:21:44,405 the, in such ways, and there will be 1856 01:21:44,405 --> 01:21:45,685 debates and rightfully so. 1857 01:21:46,105 --> 01:21:49,165 But if our only metric is what's producing more GDP, 1858 01:21:49,795 --> 01:21:53,205 then we are not, it's almost certain we're not gonna have an 1859 01:21:53,205 --> 01:21:55,485 economy that it's gonna support a broad 1860 01:21:55,485 --> 01:21:56,525 notion of the common good. 1861 01:21:56,705 --> 01:21:58,565 That's not to say that this is socialist 1862 01:21:58,565 --> 01:22:00,485 or Mark, the first thing that I kind of write liberal, 1863 01:22:00,845 --> 01:22:02,685 a kind of old fashioned conservative, say, well, 1864 01:22:02,685 --> 01:22:04,925 if you don't support free open completely open 1865 01:22:04,925 --> 01:22:05,965 markets, you're a socialist. 1866 01:22:05,965 --> 01:22:08,845 Well, no, I'm a Catholic. I'm the opposite of a socialist. 1867 01:22:09,535 --> 01:22:11,565 Right? But that there are ways of thinking 1868 01:22:11,565 --> 01:22:15,005 and talking about markets in which understand 1869 01:22:15,005 --> 01:22:17,325 that markets are a part of a political order 1870 01:22:17,425 --> 01:22:19,285 and not autonomous or separate from them. 1871 01:22:19,405 --> 01:22:21,805 I often will use the image of ancient Greece as my, 1872 01:22:22,025 --> 01:22:23,805 as my example in ancient Greece. 1873 01:22:23,905 --> 01:22:27,605 The agora was in the city, the marketplace was in the city. 1874 01:22:28,145 --> 01:22:30,645 And the way in which we conceive of the market today is 1875 01:22:30,645 --> 01:22:32,285 that every city is inside the market. 1876 01:22:33,185 --> 01:22:35,845 We talk about the market in the singular, in the singular, 1877 01:22:36,145 --> 01:22:38,205 and we talk about cities as plural. 1878 01:22:38,335 --> 01:22:40,645 We've inverted or reversed the proper understanding 1879 01:22:40,705 --> 01:22:42,925 of markets and the common good. 1880 01:22:43,505 --> 01:22:45,005 So I think there are lots of, lots 1881 01:22:45,005 --> 01:22:46,845 of ways we could have conversations about how 1882 01:22:46,845 --> 01:22:49,445 and in what ways the economy is supporting the common good. 1883 01:22:49,535 --> 01:22:51,885 Short of saying we need a workers' revolution to overturn, 1884 01:22:52,225 --> 01:22:54,645 you know, the, the means of production 1885 01:22:54,645 --> 01:22:57,045 and have a have a dictatorship of the proletariat. 1886 01:22:57,045 --> 01:22:59,045 There's a lot of distance between PO point A 1887 01:22:59,045 --> 01:23:00,485 and point B, Hayek and Marx. 1888 01:23:00,555 --> 01:23:01,605 Yeah. Thanks. 1889 01:23:05,785 --> 01:23:09,965 Um, hello. Uh, I agree pretty much entirely 1890 01:23:10,195 --> 01:23:12,845 with your critiques of modern liberal, uh, liberalism, 1891 01:23:13,465 --> 01:23:16,965 but I am generally skeptical of, uh, the kind 1892 01:23:16,965 --> 01:23:19,965 of radical changes that people offer as a replacement 1893 01:23:19,965 --> 01:23:23,565 for liberalism, and especially for a lot 1894 01:23:23,605 --> 01:23:25,085 of the post liberals I've heard from. 1895 01:23:26,025 --> 01:23:30,275 Uh, would you 1896 01:23:31,275 --> 01:23:34,795 describe the, um, how you would intend to change things 1897 01:23:34,975 --> 01:23:36,395 as a top down thing? 1898 01:23:36,395 --> 01:23:39,075 Because it doesn't seem like people would be interested 1899 01:23:39,815 --> 01:23:42,635 in these kinds of changes you are advocating for. 1900 01:23:42,725 --> 01:23:45,115 Would you have it be a top down sort of change, 1901 01:23:45,175 --> 01:23:47,235 or would you expect a more gradual change 1902 01:23:47,235 --> 01:23:48,755 of the culture towards this? 1903 01:23:50,215 --> 01:23:51,755 Thanks for that question. Well, you know, 1904 01:23:53,225 --> 01:23:54,915 it's a really tricky question, um, 1905 01:23:54,915 --> 01:23:58,355 because many things that I'm suggesting, you're right. 1906 01:23:58,395 --> 01:24:00,475 I mean, so like a public service requirement is, 1907 01:24:00,685 --> 01:24:01,795 would not be popular, 1908 01:24:02,395 --> 01:24:07,355 although it might not be unpopular if it, 1909 01:24:07,495 --> 01:24:10,155 if, if people believed it was something that all 1910 01:24:10,155 --> 01:24:11,795 of us are required to do, 1911 01:24:12,025 --> 01:24:13,995 whether you're wealthy or you're not. 1912 01:24:14,695 --> 01:24:17,115 And that it could be, and if it were offered in the spirit 1913 01:24:17,115 --> 01:24:18,155 of saying, we need 1914 01:24:18,155 --> 01:24:20,235 to overcome the social division of our country. 1915 01:24:21,015 --> 01:24:22,035 We need to ba we need 1916 01:24:22,035 --> 01:24:24,675 to have a way in which people from very different walks 1917 01:24:24,675 --> 01:24:26,195 of life are interacting with each other. 1918 01:24:26,615 --> 01:24:28,955 One of the major problems in the United States today is the 1919 01:24:28,955 --> 01:24:30,075 geographic sorting 1920 01:24:30,145 --> 01:24:32,035 that we've all been experiencing in which people 1921 01:24:32,035 --> 01:24:33,755 of certain socioeconomic classes 1922 01:24:34,335 --> 01:24:36,395 are now segregating themselves in certain 1923 01:24:36,395 --> 01:24:37,795 cities and certain neighborhoods. 1924 01:24:37,795 --> 01:24:39,275 And of course, this has always been the case, 1925 01:24:39,275 --> 01:24:42,675 but one of the great sources of integration in our country, 1926 01:24:42,675 --> 01:24:46,395 both racial and otherwise in class terms, has been 1927 01:24:46,395 --> 01:24:47,715 through forms of public service, 1928 01:24:47,715 --> 01:24:49,355 especially the military, right? 1929 01:24:49,375 --> 01:24:52,035 Joe DiMaggio was serving in the infantry, right? 1930 01:24:53,495 --> 01:24:55,275 It was, it was just, it was just expected 1931 01:24:55,425 --> 01:24:58,195 that no matter your station in life, you would, 1932 01:24:58,255 --> 01:25:01,795 you would serve your time in on behalf of your nation. 1933 01:25:02,255 --> 01:25:04,835 And if, if there were to be arguments, widespread arguments 1934 01:25:04,835 --> 01:25:06,875 that any of you who are discontent with the divisions 1935 01:25:06,875 --> 01:25:08,635 of our country, that what really what we need is a kind 1936 01:25:08,635 --> 01:25:11,475 of new form and a dedication of the kinds of things 1937 01:25:11,475 --> 01:25:12,675 that John F. Kennedy was talking about. 1938 01:25:12,675 --> 01:25:14,315 What ask, not what you would do for your country, 1939 01:25:14,935 --> 01:25:16,635 or that's not what your country would do for you. 1940 01:25:16,635 --> 01:25:17,835 Ask what you, you know, the one, 1941 01:25:19,125 --> 01:25:20,275 sorry, it's been a long day. 1942 01:25:22,675 --> 01:25:24,875 I, I think it actually might have, it might have some, 1943 01:25:25,145 --> 01:25:26,235 some considerable traction. 1944 01:25:26,375 --> 01:25:28,355 The problem is that what you call popular is 1945 01:25:28,355 --> 01:25:30,035 because of a emaciated set of choices, 1946 01:25:30,425 --> 01:25:33,435 whether it's left liberalism or right liberalism, right? 1947 01:25:33,455 --> 01:25:35,155 So, so we're already in a situation 1948 01:25:35,155 --> 01:25:36,315 where the choices are maced 1949 01:25:36,315 --> 01:25:37,795 and then everybody says, see, nobody wants this. 1950 01:25:38,325 --> 01:25:40,115 Right? It turns out that once you begin 1951 01:25:40,115 --> 01:25:42,195 to make these arguments, you can generate 1952 01:25:42,345 --> 01:25:43,435 some considerable support. 1953 01:25:43,495 --> 01:25:44,875 At least it puts it on the agenda. 1954 01:25:45,965 --> 01:25:49,065 Nobody thought, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago 1955 01:25:49,065 --> 01:25:51,065 that there was any interest in reshoring manufacturing 1956 01:25:51,475 --> 01:25:53,545 until it turned out that a lot of people actually wanted it. 1957 01:25:54,765 --> 01:25:57,225 So I think it's very difficult to say, well, nobody wants it 1958 01:25:57,225 --> 01:25:58,585 because it's not being reported by the media. 1959 01:25:58,585 --> 01:26:00,625 Guess what? The media's not gonna say anything other than 1960 01:26:00,625 --> 01:26:01,905 what the media's currently saying, 1961 01:26:02,395 --> 01:26:05,625 which is basically left liberalism, right? 1962 01:26:05,645 --> 01:26:08,265 The, the big right wing think tanks aren't gonna say 1963 01:26:08,385 --> 01:26:11,865 anything other than the right wing talking points, the, 1964 01:26:11,925 --> 01:26:13,905 the classical liberal talking points. 1965 01:26:14,365 --> 01:26:18,145 So it does require a kind of dance between elites 1966 01:26:18,405 --> 01:26:22,225 and ordinary people, in which elites who see themselves 1967 01:26:22,285 --> 01:26:24,545 as responsible to the condition of people 1968 01:26:25,285 --> 01:26:26,545 who don't have a megaphone 1969 01:26:26,645 --> 01:26:29,225 and who don't have the ability to sort of reach the media 1970 01:26:29,285 --> 01:26:32,305 and shape the conversation that they can sort of, 1971 01:26:33,055 --> 01:26:34,505 through a kind of mutual dance 1972 01:26:34,525 --> 01:26:39,505 and a mutual form of, um, magnifying those concerns, 1973 01:26:40,005 --> 01:26:41,225 change the conversation. 1974 01:26:41,805 --> 01:26:43,945 So I, I have no way of knowing whether some 1975 01:26:43,945 --> 01:26:44,945 of these proposals 1976 01:26:44,945 --> 01:26:47,865 or some of these ideas would be popular in part 1977 01:26:47,865 --> 01:26:50,305 because they're just simply not part of the agenda today. 1978 01:26:50,305 --> 01:26:52,745 But I actually think there's, there's some reason to think 1979 01:26:52,745 --> 01:26:54,025 that they might well be, 1980 01:26:54,985 --> 01:26:56,225 whenever I talk about, you know, the kind 1981 01:26:56,225 --> 01:26:59,345 of the housing situation, I see a lot of heads nodding, 1982 01:26:59,345 --> 01:27:00,865 including yours, right? 1983 01:27:02,405 --> 01:27:04,865 But here's, here's another reason for thinking that we need 1984 01:27:04,865 --> 01:27:06,745 to think seriously about, and I'm not sure which post 1985 01:27:06,745 --> 01:27:07,825 liberals you've been talking to. 1986 01:27:07,825 --> 01:27:09,065 There's like three of them. 1987 01:27:11,295 --> 01:27:12,545 Most of us disagree with each other. 1988 01:27:12,845 --> 01:27:15,865 But here's, here's why I think we should be especially 1989 01:27:15,865 --> 01:27:17,985 talking about and thinking about post liberalism. 1990 01:27:18,495 --> 01:27:21,065 It's because we're, we are entering a postliberal age. 1991 01:27:22,105 --> 01:27:24,465 I actually think liberalism, in a sense, has come to an end 1992 01:27:25,405 --> 01:27:26,945 and it's really a question of what kind 1993 01:27:26,945 --> 01:27:28,065 of liberalism it will be. 1994 01:27:28,525 --> 01:27:30,785 And here's what I see as the two other po 1995 01:27:30,785 --> 01:27:31,985 real possibilities. 1996 01:27:32,325 --> 01:27:35,305 If I don't win and my two other friends don't win, 1997 01:27:36,805 --> 01:27:40,265 the one on the left is what's now called cultural Marxism. 1998 01:27:40,265 --> 01:27:43,465 And you know about this from your governor who likes 1999 01:27:43,465 --> 01:27:46,305 to use the phrase, but it, it's real, it exists. 2000 01:27:47,685 --> 01:27:50,225 Uh, and it's, it's called cultural Marxism. 2001 01:27:50,385 --> 01:27:51,465 'cause it makes it seem like, oh, 2002 01:27:51,465 --> 01:27:52,865 it's threats like the Soviets, 2003 01:27:52,865 --> 01:27:54,185 but now they're, they're clever, 2004 01:27:55,205 --> 01:27:57,625 but it's actually, it's a kind of liberalism on steroids. 2005 01:27:59,415 --> 01:28:01,985 It's the, it's from the teachings of Herbert Marusa 2006 01:28:01,985 --> 01:28:04,145 and people like Marusa from the 1960s 2007 01:28:04,245 --> 01:28:06,705 who were living in California, you know, Germans 2008 01:28:06,705 --> 01:28:08,865 who are living in California, who argued 2009 01:28:08,865 --> 01:28:11,625 that if you really want to be free, you need 2010 01:28:11,625 --> 01:28:12,825 to be entirely free. 2011 01:28:13,735 --> 01:28:15,585 That true liberation means you, you need 2012 01:28:15,585 --> 01:28:16,865 to be from be, be, be free. 2013 01:28:16,965 --> 01:28:18,905 Be free from everything you need 2014 01:28:18,905 --> 01:28:20,945 to be free from your identity, from your family, 2015 01:28:21,135 --> 01:28:22,825 from your civilization, from your culture, 2016 01:28:22,895 --> 01:28:25,225 from your religion, from anything that claims 2017 01:28:25,225 --> 01:28:26,545 to be authoritative in your life. 2018 01:28:26,645 --> 01:28:29,625 And if there's anyone in your life that's on the right, 2019 01:28:30,125 --> 01:28:31,865 who thinks there's any kind of authority, 2020 01:28:32,295 --> 01:28:33,385 they need to be shut down. 2021 01:28:34,055 --> 01:28:36,025 They need to be disallowed from speaking. 2022 01:28:36,495 --> 01:28:38,265 They need to be disallowed from teaching. 2023 01:28:38,335 --> 01:28:41,105 They need to be disallowed from having a platform on any 2024 01:28:41,105 --> 01:28:43,665 campus and any platform in the country. 2025 01:28:43,805 --> 01:28:45,945 And this is an essay. You can read it, it's an essay called 2026 01:28:46,465 --> 01:28:48,145 Repressive Toleration, one 2027 01:28:48,145 --> 01:28:50,105 of the most important essays written on this subject. 2028 01:28:50,855 --> 01:28:52,465 This was in the name of liberation. 2029 01:28:53,255 --> 01:28:55,545 This is in the name of what the aim of liberalism is 2030 01:28:55,545 --> 01:28:58,025 to liberate us, for us to be free. 2031 01:28:58,245 --> 01:28:59,865 And in order to be free, those 2032 01:28:59,885 --> 01:29:02,205 who would prevent our freedom need to be shut down. 2033 01:29:03,105 --> 01:29:04,445 Now, if you like to call, 2034 01:29:04,505 --> 01:29:07,045 what's happening on college campuses today, illiberal? 2035 01:29:07,315 --> 01:29:10,685 Well, no, it's liberalism in its nth degree. 2036 01:29:11,355 --> 01:29:13,565 It's saying that anyone who wants to say something 2037 01:29:13,565 --> 01:29:15,645 that's no longer conforms to the idea of complete 2038 01:29:15,645 --> 01:29:19,325 and thoroughgoing liberation cannot be allowed to speak. 2039 01:29:19,985 --> 01:29:23,845 The thinker who's quoted most often in Marcus's essay is 2040 01:29:23,875 --> 01:29:27,205 John Stewart Mill, the author of a book called On Liberty, 2041 01:29:27,985 --> 01:29:30,085 in which mill made these arguments. 2042 01:29:30,265 --> 01:29:31,765 He said, we need to have free speech 2043 01:29:32,385 --> 01:29:33,485 so that everyone can be free. 2044 01:29:34,585 --> 01:29:37,005 And if anyone out there is despotic 2045 01:29:37,865 --> 01:29:41,085 or authoritarian, they should not be allowed to speak. 2046 01:29:44,315 --> 01:29:46,695 So that's, that's one form of post liberalism, 2047 01:29:46,695 --> 01:29:48,975 which is the form we're experiencing increasingly today. 2048 01:29:49,355 --> 01:29:51,415 Here's another form of post liberalism liberalism. 2049 01:29:51,415 --> 01:29:52,535 This might be news to some of you. 2050 01:29:53,165 --> 01:29:54,775 It's the renewal of interest in 2051 01:29:54,775 --> 01:29:56,095 Friedrich Nietzche on the right. 2052 01:29:57,705 --> 01:29:59,185 Nietzche is making a big comeback. 2053 01:29:59,445 --> 01:30:01,465 And if you pay any attention to these things online, 2054 01:30:01,685 --> 01:30:04,585 the the words Bronze Age pervert might not be 2055 01:30:05,065 --> 01:30:06,105 entirely unfamiliar to you. 2056 01:30:06,255 --> 01:30:07,745 Some of you out there might be saying, what? 2057 01:30:07,745 --> 01:30:08,865 And go ahead, you check it out. 2058 01:30:09,895 --> 01:30:12,385 This is one of the most popular texts and writers 2059 01:30:12,765 --> 01:30:17,745 and podcasters and tweeters 2060 01:30:17,765 --> 01:30:22,265 or Xers among particularly young men at elite 2061 01:30:22,265 --> 01:30:25,545 universities who feel themselves to be oppressed 2062 01:30:25,725 --> 01:30:30,265 by the marins, by the school arms, 2063 01:30:30,445 --> 01:30:31,865 who work in the HR offices 2064 01:30:32,005 --> 01:30:34,425 and are preventing them from being free young men. 2065 01:30:35,205 --> 01:30:37,585 And they're being attracted to this kind of new form 2066 01:30:37,585 --> 01:30:38,625 of tism. 2067 01:30:39,225 --> 01:30:41,585 I actually assigned this book in my class just last week. 2068 01:30:41,705 --> 01:30:43,945 I said, here's, here's your, the end of your Lent is 2069 01:30:43,945 --> 01:30:47,225 to read Bronze Age pervert, bronze age mindset. 2070 01:30:47,365 --> 01:30:49,065 And his call is basically for young men 2071 01:30:49,365 --> 01:30:53,645 to be completely free from the restraints of manners 2072 01:30:53,645 --> 01:30:55,675 and civility, right? 2073 01:30:55,855 --> 01:30:59,115 To assert their masculinity, to see themselves 2074 01:30:59,335 --> 01:31:03,115 as genuinely free people, not to submit 2075 01:31:03,855 --> 01:31:05,675 to anyone who's below them, 2076 01:31:06,525 --> 01:31:09,895 who's less excellent than they are. 2077 01:31:10,075 --> 01:31:12,655 So it really sees humanity in terms of sort 2078 01:31:12,655 --> 01:31:17,295 of social ranking, a kind of a, a new form of aristocracy, 2079 01:31:17,415 --> 01:31:18,455 a pure and, and, 2080 01:31:18,455 --> 01:31:20,815 and real aristocracy in which men are above women 2081 01:31:21,075 --> 01:31:23,415 and certain strong men are above other weak men. 2082 01:31:24,955 --> 01:31:26,335 And this is gaining traction. 2083 01:31:27,915 --> 01:31:29,555 I met, I met a whole bunch of them at Yale. 2084 01:31:29,635 --> 01:31:31,115 I met a whole bunch of them at Stanford. 2085 01:31:31,185 --> 01:31:32,275 There's one or two running 2086 01:31:32,275 --> 01:31:33,835 around Notre Dame, I'm sorry to say. 2087 01:31:34,695 --> 01:31:36,435 And this is quite popular among sort 2088 01:31:36,435 --> 01:31:39,275 of elite circles at some of our leading universities. 2089 01:31:39,935 --> 01:31:42,275 So there, there you have the options in the way 2090 01:31:42,535 --> 01:31:44,635 of the Postliberal Postliberal, right? 2091 01:31:44,635 --> 01:31:45,635 And the Postliberal left. 2092 01:31:45,695 --> 01:31:49,995 And I frankly don't find either very attractive. 2093 01:31:50,615 --> 01:31:52,635 And, and if we think we can escape one 2094 01:31:52,635 --> 01:31:56,155 or the other, then you know, we'd better, better hope. 2095 01:31:57,505 --> 01:31:58,555 There's a better option. 2096 01:31:59,585 --> 01:32:02,005 Mad time. Well, there, there's not really a good way 2097 01:32:02,005 --> 01:32:03,845 to close, uh, but our time, we try 2098 01:32:03,845 --> 01:32:05,405 to keep these events to about 90 minutes. 2099 01:32:05,545 --> 01:32:07,765 So there will be a book signing at the back of the room. 2100 01:32:07,765 --> 01:32:10,245 Please join me in thanking professor ine for 2101 01:32:10,635 --> 01:32:11,405 Talking us 2102 01:32:17,805 --> 01:32:18,205 sufficiently 2103 01:32:25,595 --> 01:32:25,885 hope. 2104 01:32:27,095 --> 01:32:29,685 There are lot of questions. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Out there. 2105 01:32:30,955 --> 01:32:34,005 Yeah. Thanks very much for your question.